Natural-color yellow Diamonds

Jewelry Discussion
21 
Sorry, I'm in business to sell things, I let the market and my
clients determine what to buy, not my pre-conceived notions of what
is "good".

I’m in business to sell things too but that doesn’t mean I should be
all things to all people. You know if we based things simply on what
the market wanted, the only kind of restaurant out there would be
McDonalds. But personally I won’t eat there and I will go and spend
way (way!) more money eating at places where the quality of the
product is exceedingly high. Same thing goes for my store. I’m not
going to cheapen my high quality of work by putting in synthetics or
other things that I don’t perceive as having an intrinsic value
relative to the rest of my work. The high end restaurants I go to
aren’t going to serve you a burger made from the quality of meat
McDonald’s does anymore than I am going to put synthetics in my work.
After all, once it’s in a piece of mine it represents me. If people
go and tell their friends, oh he’ll put any old cheap piece of junk
in his jewelry, then the perception will be that I make cheap
jewelry. It’s the same reason I won’t sell a $300, 1 ct. sapphire,
in my work. They look junky compared to the rest of the work and they
cheapen the entire piece. I’m not saying there isn’t a market out
there for that kind of stuff and more power to you if that’s what
you want to sell. But you’re not taking away any of my market by
selling synthetics. You’re just satisfying a market that won’t pay
the price for a high quality natural product.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140

22

I’d like to thank everyone that responded to my questions about
yellow diamonds - especially Daniel Spirer and John Donovan. That’s
exactly what I wanted to know. Thank you so much for all of the
I truly appreciate it!

Linda Blumel

23

Richard,

Wouldn't man made diamond and synthetic diamond convey the same
for disclosure?

Yes it absolutely would, but adding the word “real” before man made
would, in my opinion, be deceptive. If I were disclosing treatment on
something like that I would say “It is a synthetic diamond, made in
the laboratory.” Obviously if it’s not made by nature than it would
be made by man so adding that would sound redundant. Unless of course
it was made by aliens. But that’s another story.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140

24 
Wouldn't man made diamond and synthetic diamond convey the same
for disclosure?

This is the core of an issue I struggle with whenever I deal with
the “natural/not natural” question (which, fortunately, is not
often). It I tell someone-- customer, student or friend-- that a
stone is synthetic, I always feel it is necessary to explain. I
think most people, hearing “synthetic” think “simulated”.

So though “synthetic” is the technically correct, legal term,
“man-made” or “lab-grown” communicate more clearly and accurately,
IMO. Personally, I think “lab-grown” is the most concise appropriate
way to describe synthetic stones.

Noel

25

Hi Richard,

This is the first time the material has been produced on a
commercial scale, to my knowledge, although I was part of a group
that performed diffusion of a Ti/Fe mixture into colorless syn
sapphire back in the late 70’s. We achieved a depth of penetration
that has not been seen elsewhere by our process (2.5-3 mm). I have
photos of the pieces, if you are interested, and have shared this
info with GIA in the distant past.

At any rate, the energy required to accomplish this made it not
financially feasible to pursue production, at least back then.

While it is true that blue synthetic corundum is readily available,
the Verneuil boules are not a solid color…the color is restricted
to a “rind” on the outside of the boule which must be placed in the
culet when cutting, so that color will disperse through the stone. I
have cut and can show a 6 mm round that I cut from this material,
that, when viewed from the side, shows almost no blue, as the only
thing blue in the stone is the last 0.05 mm (yes, that is correct)
of the culet. The stone appears colorless or nearly so from the
side, but is a rich blue when viewed through the table. In the boule
material, the demarcation from blue to colorless is quite abrupt,
and easily identifies the material as Verneuil process corundum.

Also, the saturation of the boule material is quite intense…very
dark, and not to everyone’s liking in larger stones. The diffusion
process produces a much more attractive (to my eye) color. The
boules produce a color that looks like heat-treated Australian or
darker Thai goods, while the diffusion process produces more of a
top Ceylon color which quickly outsells the boule goods.

What is achieved is an alternative product, more expensive than
boule material, but still much less than heat-treated goods. It is
even much less than hydrothermally grown or flux (read Chatham) or
floating point grown synthetic sapphire. Diffusion treated natural
sapphire (poor or off color) with good blue color sells at wholesale
for $50-200/c depending on size…the synthetic diffused product
sells for $15-25/c, and offers a jeweler another alternative for
those who like color but cannot or will not buy natural or the other
products.

Consider that Chatham product wholesales for 8-10 times this amount,
and they sell a LOT of product, there may be a place in the market
for this. As I said, I have no trouble selling it to my jeweler
base, just trouble getting it in stock. The usual detection methods
can reveal this material as diffused (when loose), but demonstrating
that it is synthetic can be troublesome, so there is always the
potential for chicanery. I sell to jewelers on invoices clearly
marked “synthetic” and add that disclosure is mandatory when they
sell. If I discover they did NOT disclose, there will be a problem.

My source will remain confidential as it took many dollars and much
time to get this to a reality. And no, I do not cut this material
myself, and it shows (looks like the standard “native” cut material
from Bangkok) I am working on a way to have my fancy cuts so
treated, which will require re-polishng, but we’ll have to see if it
makes sense as a LOT of work goes into stones that I cut for the
trade. (Translation: Not cheap).

Wayne Emery
The Gemcutter

26 
You know if we based things simply on what the market wanted, the
only kind of restaurant out there would be McDonalds.

Sorry, I disagree. People’s wants and desires create markets, not
the other way around, as your reasoning would imply.

I do not and will not eat at a McDonald’s. Fortunately, there are
enough folks who agree so that the marketplace has provided us with
alternatives to McDonalad’s. McDonald’s will not capture the “Bon
Appetit” crowd, and most McDonald’s fans will not wait in line at
Tavern on the Green. And there is a wide variety of choices in
between for the masses.

Dan, your jewelry is exquisite! But could I at least suggest not
using those native cut atrocities, natural though they may be?

Sit down, just kidding, sort of, but do you see my point? I spent
twenty-one years creating beautiful one-of-a-kind pieces and you
would be surprised, maybe even alarmed or saddened or disappointed
to know that some (not many) contained “exquisite” fakes, at the
behest of the purchaser. And I can assure you that all of these
“stones” outdid any native cut pieces, because they were cut and
polished correctly, not to maintain weight from the rough.

Week in and week out, I receive such wonderful things as 5-7 carat
unheated Burmese sapphires, Nigerian and Mozambique “Paraiba”
tourmalines, and a host of lesser stars, from designers and picky
ndividuals who want their natural goods re-cut for maximum beauty,
and I do it. The weight loss can be huge, but it is often worth it
in the increased value of the goods. And it disheartens me to see so
much beautiful metal carftsmanship out there holding poorly cut
goods, whose real beauty is hidden, never to be seen.

IMO, the TRUE fine jewelry work never contains native cut stones, no
matter the color. Funny how folks have different perspectives on
jewelry isn’t it?

Yes, I cut and sell fine natural material, it is the stuff of dreams
and love and perhaps addiction…but synthetics DO play an
increasing role in the marketplace. My suggestion to aspiring
jewelers is to take a piece of BOTH worlds, you’ll be the better for
it. And a market exists only because of demand.

Wayne Emery
The Gemcutter

27

A woman walked into the place where I was showing in Tucson, second
floor of the lobby at the Inn Suites and she had on a pendant that
had a very large slightly yellow well cut stone in it that was
clearly highly refractive and had good prismatic effect. I asked her
what it was and she said it was a diamond.

I said really is it a diamond simulant, it doesn’t look like CZ? And
she said, no it’s a diamond. I asked if it was a lab grown diamond
and she said no it’s a natural yellow diamond.

I got out my loop and with her permission took a much closer look at
her chest.

Her husband explained that it was a 10.5 carat natural yellow
diamond that was a family heirloom. When I said it seemed dangerours
to walk around with that on. He said that she enjoyed wearing it,
that it was well insured, and that usually when people asked what it
was they were lead to believe it was fake. Clearly the setting that
is was in was a beautifully made platnum so I concluded that they
were telling the truth and truth to tell although diamonds don’t
generally grab me that much, this was a very beautiful, very well
cut stone and somewhat impressive in size. Her husband’s
contribution to the ensemble was a 2.5 carat white diamond in a
ring. Dwarfed.

I did look at the yellow fairly carefully, it was pale but
distinctly yellow. I could not find any flaws, though she didn’t
take it off.

I’d say yellow diamonds can be quite impressive.

Derek Levin
WWW.Gemmaker.com

28

Wayne,

I’m a little confused by why you think all of my gem material is
native cut (or that my stones look atrocious). I have, over the
years, whittled down my suppliers to a few who only sell top cut
material, much of it that has been recut in this country. Do I sell
native cut stones that the color is great on? Sure. While some native
cut material might not take full advantage of the color in some
material, a lot of it does. I have, in the past, worked with a number
of gem dealers who I insisted provide better cut material, and, when
they wouldn’t, I simply stopped buying from them. I am, after 30
years of looking at gem materials, one of the best high graders out
there and I can assure you that I simply won’t take material that is
not shown to it’s best advantage. I think, however, that your disdain
for any native cut material kind of carries it to the extreme. I have
seen many high end stones that looked great to begin with, were recut
and looked just about the same afterwards. Some gem materials are
just plain beautiful, no matter what you do with them. I have also
had stones recut that looked much worse afterwards.

I’m also sure that you are able to sell many synthetics both to low
end and high end customers. This doesn’t alarm or upset me in any
way. Thanks to a local high end gallery who’s repair work I do, I see
some of the weirdest, most expensive hand made jewelry that uses some
of the most inexplicable gem materials around (and this stuff goes
for amazing amounts of money). I’ve used a few weird things in my day
too.

But quite frankly, my customers, and the customers who I want to be
my customers, want natural materials in their jewelry (and this is
why I have no problem servicing the gallery mentioned above–their
customers are looking for something other than what I do). Could I
take some piece of synthetic sapphire and put it in one of the rings
that I normally sell with a natural stone for $5000 and sell it for
$500? Sure. But why would I want to? As I said in the last posting,
the first thing it does is cheapen my product. I only show jewelry in
18k and 22k and 950 platinum for the same reason. I’m not making a
cheap product, I’m making a really fine, high quality one. Secondly,
in order to make the same amount of money I have to sell 10 of the
rings. I am not a high volume business and never will be, so there is
absolutely no advantage to doing something like that (actually there
is a huge disadvantage given the time I would have to invest in
making up 10 of the things instead of 1 to make the same amount of
money).

But my initial comments to you referred back to this statement of
yours:

Some here say they wouldn't sell them, but, IMO, their snobbery is
affecting their bank account adversely. I will and do sell
synthetics and treated goods to jewelers and end users, and will
eventually happily sell to the folks that some will not sell to
because they won't carry the goods

Let’s go back to the food analogy (I like food a lot). I have a
friend who is a high end restaurateur. He makes an amazing product,
offers great service, a wonderful bar, etc, and he opened his new
restaurant in a former Burger King (which it certainly doesn’t
resemble anymore) location. Do you think for one minute that he
wants to draw the former Burger King clientele in? No. First of all
they wouldn’t even understand his food. Secondly they can’t afford
it. Does this mean that he should sink down to their level so that he
can draw them back in to the former Burger King? Does this adversely
affect his bank account? Well sure, if he opened up a bunch of
burger franchises he might be richer. But is that what he wants to do
with his life?? Absolutely not. And is he able to bring in enough
high end clients to make his business profitable? Absolutely. So the
question becomes (based on your statement here), should he start
selling burgers because there’s a buck to be made? Or should he keep
selling the rabbit gnocchi appetizer that, when you eat it, tastes
like you just entered Nirvana, and gets me (yes me, the guy who has
$150 to spend with his wife on a meal on a regular basis as opposed
to the guy wanting a $2 burger) to keep coming back? Could he make
and sell the $2 burger? Sure. Should he? Not in my book.

Same thing for me. I have never said (actually I have always been
quite vocal about this) that there isn’t a market for synthetics, or
that they shouldn’t be sold (assuming proper disclosure). I think
there is a market for everything out there and I think there is
nothing wrong with everyone having an opportunity to own some pretty
jewelry. But the fact that I won’t sell synthetics doesn’t harm my
bank account. Actually, if you use the 1 vs. 10 ring example above
it helps my bank account to not sell them. If you’d like, Wayne, I’d
be happy to compare earnings figures with you off list so that you
could see that my way, while not the only way, is most certainly a
highly profitable way.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140

29 
Her husband explained that it was a 10.5 carat natural yellow
diamond that was a family heirloom

The other side of the coin is that the setter I use when I don’t do
it myself has set and seen about 1/2 million stones - he knows what
diamonds are about. He wears an irradiated blue ear stud of about
1/4 ct., just because he likes it. There’s no mistaking that it’s
treated, but it’s a very nice, bright blue. Diffr’nt strokes…

30

Daniel,

Please, I must apologize and I hope everyone reads this…

I certainly had NO intention of disparaging your work and I thought
I said so, but apparently it was nor clear enough that I was
speaking tongue in cheek. If you’ll re-read my comments, I hope you
can see that as well.

And, of course, there are all degrees of native cutting, some of it
passable, IMO, but none that I have ever seen compares to the work
of truly skilled cutters. None, sorry.

I do not have a disdain for all native cut material, it all has its
place. And, if you have had stones recut that looked worse
afterwards, I hope you found another cutter!

And I do not disagree that there are more dollars in the natural
than in the synthetic market. Not bigger margins, but more dollars,
GMROI makes a difference. I do cut both, and the love I have for
beautiful natural stones is truly lust.

I think that your comments AND mine about servicing markets are both
correct. You have obviously worked hard to create a niche and a
customer base that desires natural goods only. Excellent! But please
try to understand that the original comments applied to the mass of
mom/pop stores, not YOUR niche specifically. For those whose business
plan is to carry a wide variety of goods and price points; to satisfy
everyone from teenagers to the wealthy, not carrying well made
synthetics IS missing a profitable market.

But that’s not you, and that’s okay. After a couple of decades in the
retail jewelry business I decided that making money was not the right
goal for me. The more I had, the more complicated my life became. The
long hours and employee management problems were more stress than I
wanted. I literally had to take a break from it all to try to
understand why the money was not making me happy. I thought that’s
why I was in business, to make more money! Well, after some very
difficult soul-searching and re-arrangement of values (and I’m not
always comfortable with it) I know exactly how I wish to spend the
remaining days of my life and I will celebrate my 62 year shortly
comfortably, unhurried, unstressed and pretty happy. So, now, I have
returned to “stones only”. I still get pleas from former customers to
build things for them, and I sometimes accommodate, but I’m happy
doing what I do without being a clock slave. I come and go as I wish
and that makes me happy in my impending “senior years”.

I wish you continued success in all your endeavors and hope that all
your goals are met and bring you joy. I really, really apologize for
any misunderstanding and, PLEASE, Daniel, know that I was not
disparaging your beautiful work. I’ve seen it and it’s great.

Wayne Emery
The Gemcutter

31

Daniel,

I love your “philosophy” and strategy. Thank you for the reminder.

I work at instilling the idea to my students that they need to reach
beyond the “Burger King” crowd. So few ever get it. They equate
volume with success. There was a country song about working your
fingers to the bone and what do you get? Bony fingers.

Thanks.

Bill Churlik
www.earthspeakarts.com

32

To All Y’all,

Although I have been googlie-eyed about diamonds for over fifty
years and saw my first yellow 5 carat marquise in 1977, and LOVE
yellow diamonds almost as much as white ones, I have only become
really knowledgable about treatments in recent years. And I come to
realize that much as I know what I know, many of you know more than I
and that becomes more evident everyday that I read the forum and
progress in my GG studies.

That said, as a jeweler I get antsy about treatments because,
mostly, I fear my customers will know as much as I do about the
treatments and therefore might reject the stones because they are
"Fake". As a customer and a wearer of jewelry I don’t give a flying
fig. So, in my mind, there is the rub. I sometimes marvel at the
obvious crap that some people wear…then again, I have a center
stone in my engagement ring that has a huge chip down one side of the
diamond. But inside it is almost flawless. Does it look awful to
someone who has great eyesight? You bet! Does it look awful to me?
Nah, I love the stone, (And I need glasses to see anything close up.)
but could never sell anything like it with the chip. Could I have it
recut, yes…but it would lose a lot of weight and then I would be
forced to buy a larger stone. Ah darn! Of course, one day I shall
have it recut and give it to one of my descendants. In the meantime
if is a lovely stone to me.

So the important thing to remember is that most of the public has a
lesser knowledge than the jeweler about the materials. Yellow is not
a favorite color (in wearing apparel or stones) but has been marketed
heavily in recent years by Graff and others and that has created
desire and demand.

So sift that down to whatever you wish it to be for you and your
clientele. I too love good food but will only admit through duress
and torture that if I see a Krispy Kreme I am there and walking out
with two hot donuts faster that you can say carotid artery blockage.

I also want to say that I have learned a lot from all of you and
about you. If I were drunk I’d be saying “I love you man!” But I’m
not so…

Yes there are some very savvy customers, but most aren’t. They buy
for emotional reasons. They buy to feel good, to feel validated or
because they want to believe they “deserve” it. What ever it
is…cool! Yes, we can dictate our own standards but we can also
serve someone who comes in and hasn’t a clue what they want but they
know what their budget is and what they think they want the piece to
look like. They just might need a little direction. Then, also, as
you educate your clientele and they become more savvy, they will in
turn become more loyal with their dollars (repeat customers who might
spend more next time). That makes for less work to make a living. And
less stress as Wayne was talking about. BTW, Happy Birthday to you!

I have natural yellow diamonds in my inventory as well as treated
ones. Also some blue and green melee. They all have their place. Just
like all of us…huh? Most of them are in the medium level of
saturation, not the garish yellow. Do I love them all? Will I use
them all? Yesirree… Someone will just love them! As much as I did
when I bought them and as I do every time I look through my
inventory!

Just my thoughts as I sit in the lobby of the Sheraton Midtown in
Atlanta, using their wireless because the wireless at the B&B where
I’m staying doesn’t reach my computer. Here in Atlanta furthering the
GG! Next month off to Lafayette and Stuller for more labs!

Sign me a dyed in the wool (pun intended) diamond junkie!

Nel

33

Ahh, my bad here guys. I believe I stated that it was illegal to use
the term “cultured” diamonds to refer to synthetics. It turns out
that the FTC does, in fact, allow the term “cultured” diamonds for
synthetic diamonds. However almost all industry, ethics based
organizations, believe it is an improper use of the term (and are
actively petitioning the FTC to disallow the phrase).

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140

34 
"cultured" diamonds to refer to synthetics

I must be missing something here because while I consider CZ’s to be
synthetics, I am not sure the diamonds being produced by (for
example) Apollo are synthetic. They are actual diamonds produced by
man but the end product is a white diamond. Therefore, my perception
is that “cultured” would be a logical qualifier as it is for pearls.

I do find it interesting, however, that these “cultured diamonds”,
produced in a matter of days, are only 15% below the price of
natural diamonds. I can’t decide if it is a short term pricing issue
(i.e., comparable to the new cell phone that starts out at $459 and
then drops to $49) or if DeBeers has already met with this company
(et. al.) to ensure that this “cultured” product does not destroy the
diamond industry.

Cameron

35 
I must be missing something here because while I consider CZ's to
be synthetics, I am not sure the diamonds being produced by (for
example) Apollo are synthetic.

You may be confusing your terms. CZ’s are both a simulant (meant to
imitate diamond) and a synthetic (man made). Anything made by man (as
opposed to coming out of the earth) is synthetic. Hence the Apollo
(and all like them) diamonds are synthetic (made by man). Cultured is
a phrase that, in my book at least, is misleading in this case.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140

36 
I must be missing something here because while I consider CZ's to
be synthetics, I am not sure the diamonds being produced by (for
example) Apollo are synthetic.

Sorry Cameron, I don’t mean to single you out, but–

This really highlights what I was saying a week or so ago about the
problem of confusion between “synthetic” and “simulted”. If even
folks on this forum have trouble keeping it straight, then most of
the public clearly will too. So I think “cultured” is going to cause
much less confusion when describing lab-grown (synthetic, NOT
simulated) stones.

By the way, for the record, CZ’s are simulated (diamond). Apollo and
Gemesis diamonds are diamonds, but synthetic, i.e. lab-grown.

Noel

37 
By the way, for the record, CZ's are simulated (diamond)

Actually for the record, they are not simulated but a simulant (i.e.
appear to be something they aren’t).

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140

38

I purchased a grown diamond for my rings that I use as demos. When I
got the stones they looked incredible. They looked so good they even
fooled my diamond tester. Yes they tested as real diamonds. They are
so beautiful and I got 1 ct and 2 CT. Now I wish I had purchased
more.

Shalene

39

Shalene,

Of course it tested as diamond on your diamond tester. It has all of
the physical properties of natural diamond. It just was made by man
and you need more sophisticated equipment than a diamond tester to
determine that.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140

40

Hi Shalene,

I purchased a grown diamond for my rings that I use as demos. When
I got the stones they looked incredible. They looked so good they
even fooled my diamond tester. Yes they tested as real diamonds.

They are REAL diamonds, therefore they should test as real diamonds.

The only thing different between them & natural diamonds is their
place of birth.

Natural diamonds were born deep in the bowels of the earth under
tremendous heat & pressure many thousands/millions of years ago.
Synthetic/man-made/cultured diamonds were born in a laboratory under
tremendous heat & pressure several weeks/months ago.

Both diamonds & physical characteristics.

Dave