If it fizzes, then it’s not jade. Pure and simple. jadeite
can be yellow, orange, brownish, etc, in addition to greens,
whites, reddish browns, lavenders, etc. Not necessarily dyed
either, though it may have been.
Nobody said jade fizzes. What I said was, some yellow “jade” I had
fizzed. Clearly, the yellow “jade” wasn’t yellow jade - it was
calcite or aragonite. Pay attention, Gentle Readers. Unscrupulous
dealers are looking for people who don’t.
All, Disclosure laws in the United States apply to A very
good article was written by a lawyer in the last Gems & Gemology
about the difference between disclosure and fraud. United States
Federal Trade Commission Guidelines are written about disclosure and
not about fraud. Disclosure applies only to gem stones and not what
is sold by Fire Mountain Gems. Fraud is different and each state in
the United States has its own statutes about fraud.
Gerry Galarneau
You certainly make startling statements here; in my 40 years of lapidary I never saw a "scratch" to appear on corundum unless there was an imbedded foreign mineral there.
Ask any stone setting whether they’ve ever noted a ruby or sapphire
to develop an unfortunate “scratch” just above the edge of a bezel,
if they were too aggressive with a graver or burnisher. I’ve done
enough of those scratches myself to know this happens. In actual
lapidary work you’re not so likely to have the problem, since you’re
not generally pushing so hard with a steel point. Trust me, my
friend, it happens. Anything but diamond, you can damage if Mr.
Murphy’s laws decide to take hold, and you’re not careful. Harder
stones are harder to damage, but not impossible.
And quartz will easily scratch with good steel.
Well, yes. I said the same, in essence, above, where I point out
that even sapphire or ruby can, in some instances, appear to be
scratched by steel. So didn’t you say jade would resist that scratch?
Jade, both nephrite and Jadeite, are both SOFTER than quartz. But
they are tougher. You might have to press harder… if your steel
will actually scratch the quartz, then the same steel will surely
scratch jade. I still maintain that a hardness test with your
trusty pocket knife, as you suggested, is not a good and reliable
proof of jade. Sure, it easily makes some separations, but your
statement was a lot more of a blanket one than that. And I’ll stand
by my statement that, in agreement with a number of gemological
authorities, using hardness tests on finished cut gems is a poor
practice to be discouraged when possible.
And a needle is sufficient to make the test on a small bead with no apparant damage to the piece.
why do any damage at all? And though a bead may be easy to find
some inconspicuous spot to test, I promise you that if you plan to
use a hardness test on really good quality jade, even a small
scratch could land you in a courtroom. Sure, your bead won’t do it,
but the needed tests are not that complex, and apply equally to the
25 cent bead as to the 25K imperial jade cab.
'Guess I just don't understand those who complicate every little matter. I've succeeded in this profession by usually sticking with my favorite philosophy: 'keep it simple'.
I’d point out that when you stick with keeping it simple to test
your jade, you are relying on MUCH more than just the hardness test.
You’re also relying on those 40 years of experience with jade, it’s
appearance and nuances. Perhaps you’re not giving your eyes enough
credit, but you’re seeing much that helps you know what
you’re seeing long before pulling out that needle to check that one
last factor. This works fine for you, with the experience to know
what you’re seeing. But posting to the list saying that all that is
needed is the hardness test, might lead some neophyte to think that
they, with no experience with jade, can use hardness with equal
surety. And that just isn’t the case.
I don’t suggest complicating anything beyond what is needed. Keep
it simple works well, when it’s appropriate. It’s common knowledge
that people with enough experience can, by eye alone, identify most
gems. They’re using the appearance of many factors of gemology, and
though they’re not doing formal tests, they’re looking at the
results those properties impart on the appearance of the gem. that
takes nothing more complex than knowledge and practice and knowing
what to look for. After all those years, whether you realize it or
not, your eyes are enormously sophisticated testing instruments, as
are your hands, knowing the feel of the stones. When, for example,
I say a steel graver can scratch a sapphire, I’m not implying the
steel is harder than the sapphire. I’m pointing out that not all
scratches are quite the same, and without practice, the test can be
confusing. Someone determined to scratch a stone with a steel tool,
usually can succeed, even if the stone is harder. And some harder
stones are brittle enough that causing damage with a steel tool is
downright easy. Any stone setter will confirm that for you.
And you can't take a $10 "jade" necklace to a gemologist and pay $25 for an academic ID just every day...(Which you'd be forced to do under your suggested protocols).
No, you’re not forced. if you learn the proper testing methods, you
can do it yourself much more easily, in only a little more time than
that scratch test, and without potential damage, even small, to the
stone… My point is just that your blanket statement that all you
need is a pocket knife, while true sometimes, is just too broad a
statement.
Knowledge is power, it’s been said. Gemological training can be had
from many sources, both costly and formal, or almost free, if one
takes the time to find the books and study them. Once upon a time,
homebrew methods and simple wisdom were fine. Nowadays, a bit more
sophistication is in order. Among other things, the gem market has
gotten a lot more sophisticated in terms of the fakes and frauds and
stimulants offered for your consumption. Some are very good
duplicates indeed. It is well worth the time to be informed and
able to determine what one is dealing with, as well as willing to
“punt” when a situation demands more equipment or skill than one has
available.
Peter
Peter,
I think the confusion here is in knowing the difference between
hardness and toughness. Sapphire is hard and will not scratch by a
steel burnisher. But it can chip, especially if it has been heat
treated. The small marks that happen from careless setting are
actually a series of small chips. If you took the same burnisher and
ran it across the table of the sapphire that chipped along the facets
above the bezel you would find that it will not scratch.
Greg DeMark
greg@demarkjewelry.com
www.demarkjewelry.com
www.outdrs.net/~demark
When you're buying beads at a show, you CANNOT scratch them with a knife, or pour acid on them, or crush them to look for cleavage planes. Please keep this in mind as you shop. ;-)
As a professional I never buy beads at a show; however if a seller
anywhere wouldn’t guarantee what they’re selling then they WOULD,
obviously, have offer a test situation or automatic refund in
future. A tiny scratch with a steel needle would NOT be readily
visible or an affront to the seller…
Hi Peter, Well here you weren’t so “startling” and have made a few
very good points, but firstly, you still confuse apples with oranges:
Ask any stone setting whether they've ever noted a ruby or sapphire to develop an unfortunate "scratch" just above the edge of a bezel, if they were too aggressive with a graver or burnisher. I've done enough of those scratches myself to know this happens. In actual lapidary work you're not so likely to have the problem, since you're not generally pushing so hard with a steel point. Trust me, my friend, it happens. Anything but diamond, you can damage if Mr. Murphy's laws decide to take hold, and you're not careful. Harder stones are harder to damage, but not impossible. Sure, "anything" is possible but with care, one CANNOT 'scratch' ruby or sapphire-an unexpected fracture inside, or inclusion, could cause trouble but a good look at the piece in advance precluses that happening AND, you keep referring to set (and obviously gem-grade) stones when this discussion was ONLY about cheap bead minerals. Also, I've broken diamonds too-but not scratched them
So didn’t you say jade would resist that scratch? Jade, both nephrite
and Jadeite, are both SOFTER than quartz. But they are tougher. You
might have to press harder… if your steel will actually scratch the
quartz, then the same steel will surely scratch jade.Quite incorrect
sir: jade, both nephrite and jadeite are tougher AND harder-the best
Samurai steel will not scratch any genuine jade and will ALWAYS
scratch quartz
I still maintain that a hardness test with your trusty pocket knife,
as you suggested, is not a good and reliable proof of jade. And never
did I say that it was a “good…” proof, only that CHEAP stones
can easily be ID’d with sharp steel.
I don’t suggest complicating anything beyond what is needed. Keep it
simple works well, when it’s appropriate. It’s common knowledge that
people with enough experience can, by eye alone, identify most gems.
They’re using the appearance of many factors of gemology, and though
they’re not doing formal tests, they’re looking at the results those
properties impart on the appearance of the gem. that takes nothing
more complex than knowledge and practice and knowing what to look
for. After all those years, whether you realize it or not, Yes, yes ,
but we’re still merely discussing hardness testing-why keep
inserting additional factors. I often DO just ‘smell’ an emerald,
probably using some of your suggested acquired skills, but I stll
buy and sell jade regularly and, if in doubt, ALWAYS use the scratch
test-I’m usually in a jungle or mountain somewhere and WILL alwaYS
have my ‘sophisticated’ trusty ‘moh/testing’ equipment along, call
it a knife or whatever you will…
And you can't take a $10 "jade" necklace to a gemologist and pay $25 for an academic ID just every day...(Which you'd be forced to do under your suggested protocols).
See other of my mystical gems/minerals/jewelry at:
Hi Peter, Well here you weren't so "startling" and have made a few very good points, but firstly, you still confuse apples with oranges:
Maybe I’m mixing up your fruits, but I was replying to the rather
blanket statements you made, which might have been in reply to
discussions of bead materials, but which did not limit themselves
thusly in your replies.
Your post, to which this is a reply, is somewhat scrambled in terms
of what seems to be my quoted statements, and what seems your reply,
as much of what is unquoted is what I wrote, while many of your reply
comments are in the quoted sections. So I’ve somewhat selectively
edited your post for this reply, to isolate your comments, which I’ll
address.
Sure, "anything" is possible but with care, one CANNOT 'scratch' ruby or sapphire-an unexpected fracture inside, or inclusion, could cause trouble but a good look at the piece in advance precluses that happening AND, you keep referring to set (and obviously gem-grade) stones when this discussion was ONLY about cheap bead minerals. Also, I've broken diamonds too-but not scratched them
True enough. My statement was that relying on a hardness test can
be unreliable, especially for a beginner, since I assure you, it does
NOT require an internal flaw in that ruby, for a graver or burnisher
to leave what looks, even under a microscope, much like a scratch.
Technically, of course, it is a series of crushed or bruised areas,
rather than a true scratch, and does not mean the tool is harder.
Just tougher. But as I said, ask any setter whether he or she can
seriously damage a ruby or sapphire, even a flawless one or a
perfectly clean cheap flame fusion one, with careless bezel setting.
The damage really will look like a scratch, not a series of chips or
anything. Any neophytes looking at that, could well assume that it’s
a scratch, and wonder if their tool is harder than the stone. The
reason it happens, of course, is that though the stone is much harder
than the steel, it’s also rigid and somewhat brittle, while the steel
is much tougher. The stone may blunt and deform the tool tip, but the
tool tip can still exert pressure needed to cause the damage.
This difference between hardness and toughness is part of what makes
hardness testing problematic. True scratch testing requires a rather
gentle deft touch.
So didn't you say jade would resist that scratch? Jade, both nephrite and Jadeite, are both SOFTER than quartz. But they are tougher. You might have to press harder... if your steel will actually scratch the quartz, then the same steel will surely scratch jade.
Quite incorrect sir: jade, both nephrite and jadeite are tougher AND harder-the best Samurai steel will not scratch any genuine jade and will ALWAYS scratch quartz
A fully hardened high carbon steel can indeed be harder than 7 on
the mohs scale, though only barely. So a file, or the like, can
sometimes with difficulty, scratch quartz. Most knife blades are not
hardened quite this much, with about 5.5 to 6 being average,
according to charts published by Sinkankas, and others.
Nephrite, generally is generally listed as varying from 6 to 6.5,
while jadeite is listed as 6.5 in Sinkankas’s charts, and others.
Individual specimens will very of course, and these may be close
enough that given the much higher toughness of jade, can make
comparing them with quartz difficult. Nevertheless, quartz is harder
than jade in terms of just it’s formal hardness specification. The
actual ease with which you can scratch it varies a lot according to
technique. But just try GENTLY drawing the point of a quartz crystal
across any piece of jade you wish. You’ll find you can leave a
scratch on the jade, while drawing a sharp corner of the jade across
the quartz crystal will not do the same. And just for fun, I just
took a nice jadeite cab I’ve got, which already needs recutting due
to a chip, and tried to scratch it with my old victorinox swiss army
knife blade. Not samurai, of course, but rather more typical of what
most knife wielders will have around. It leaves no mark on the jade,
nor did it do a thing to a Brazilian agate cab. Turned over, and
tried again on the unpolished undersides, both stones received a
mark of steel rubbed off, just as gold would do on a touchstone,
while neither stone itself was scratched.
So much for “ALWAYS:”. but of course, you did specify Samurai steel
this time… Want to send me some to try? Not being a ninja
lapidary, I don’t happen to have that around to compare…
And never did I say that it was a "good......" proof, only that CHEAP stones can easily be ID'd with sharp steel.
OK. If that was stated in a post earlier than the one I replied to,
I wasn’t aware of it. Of course, the truth of this depends, still,
on just which cheap stone one is talking about. You can get junk
jadeite that is inexpensive and cheap because the color is crappy, but
it can still be jadeite. Certainly, even a soft metal tool will
easily damage those jade substitutes that are calcite or the like.
no argument there. Those are the ones that “fizz”…
Yes, yes , but we're still merely discussing hardness testing-why keep inserting additional factors. I often DO just 'smell' an emerald, probably using some of your suggested acquired skills, but I stll buy and sell jade regularly and, if in doubt, ALWAYS use the scratch test-I'm usually in a jungle or mountain somewhere and WILL alwaYS have my 'sophisticated' trusty 'moh/testing' equipment along, call it a knife or whatever you will...
I mentioned other tests because you said I suggested that one needed
to pay big bucks to have those tests done. My point here was that it
need not be that complex, and one even with visual observation, was
already considering far more than hardness.
I do not dispute, at all, your ability to reliably determine jade in
the field. I can do it too, and I too, might sometimes check hardness
on rough materials if I needed to. But your statement, without other
qualifications, was that it was always all you ever needed, a
suggestion that will have the retail buyers without other knowledge
or experience trying to test everything green and jade like with their
pocket knives, just as some of those same folks still insist that if
that white cut stone scratches glass, it must be diamond (an old
wives tale that even today is responsible for damage to any number of
costly showcase glass tops, when customers surreptitiously scrape the
diamond they’re being shown across the showcase, just to be sure,
unaware that a CZ might also scratch the glass, and a moissonite or
white sapphire surely would.
Had your posting, to which I replied, been worded even slightly
differently, to suggest that all you USUALLY needed, was your
hardness test, coupled with your experience, I’d not have had any
objections. Try to remember that this list is read not just by the
professionals, but by hobbyists and retail enthusiasts as well, who
often will not have the experience to intelligently interpret a
hardness test, or know when the results of such an attempt are
meaningful.
By the way, I did enjoy checking your web pages. Some nice work,
sir. Thanks for sharing it with us.
Peter Rowe
I think the confusion here is in knowing the difference between hardness and toughness.
That’s exactly right; since jade is so tough it can not scratch with
a steel pin or knife. Emerald on the other hand, at hardness of 8
will chip up the gazoo, looking much like a scratch, but not one.
Nephrite, at 6 and 1/2 on the Moh won’t chip OR scratch unless there
are extraneous minerals present, which is invariably noticeable.
OK Peter, you make many fine points here; I agree with most.
However, originally I was responding ONLY to a post concerning
inexpensive jade beads. If anyone wants to sell me these, stating
they’re jade, and won’t let me try a small scratch in a hidden area
of the stone I’ll know something;'s fishy-because no-one can make a
true mark with steel on true jade, nephrite or jadeite…