Marriage of Metal Images

Hey there,

I am putting together a powerpoint presentation on Marriage of Metals
(Married Metals) for teaching purposes. I have been surfing the web
and pulling images off of websites, but I would love to find more
quality images of Marraige of Metal work. If anyone has digital
images of Marriage of Metal work and would be willing to share them
with me for my powerpoint show, I would really appreciate it! You can
just send them to me at my email address as an attachment. I will be
sure to give you credit for the work during my presentation.

Thank you!
Joanna Gollberg

... I have been surfing the web and pulling images off of
websites..." 

Whoooeeeee! Did this one get my goat!!

this is very bad practice - and it is theft. Of an artist’s image and
livelihood.

I am hoping that I am wrong and that you have been pulling images
off with the site owner’s permission, but it sure doesn’t sound like
it.

Please clarify.

Ivy S. Fasko
Contemporary Handcrafted Jewelry
http://www.ivysfasko.com

Hello Ivy,

... I have been surfing the web and pulling images off of
websites..." 
this is very bad practice - and it is theft. Of an artist's image
and livelihood. 

At the risk of kicking the hornet’s nest I’d have to say that I
strongly disagree. If I save a copy of one of your images on my
computer --it’s there already by the way, by the very nature of how
browsers work-- and that is stealing your livelihood then I strongly
suggest you don’t put that image on the web. If it’s on the web then
it’s doing the rounds whether you like it or not.

I guess what I’m saying is that I think it’s worth doing a reality
check here. For better or worse the web is a public place. Things
posted in public places often end up in people’s pockets whether those
pockets be physical or digital. I promise you that no matter what you
do to avoid this it won’t work, especially not when it comes to
easily transported things like digital images over an essentially
unregulated form of digital transmission like the internet. The
bottom line is that if the image appears on a computer screen then it
can be saved, period. I know because I’ve seen it done: anything,
anywhere, anytime. It’s just the nature of the beast.

The reasoning behind my devil’s advocacy here goes something like
this: if an image appears in public, be it in a magazine or flyer or
catalogue or website, then people are going to cut it out and stick it
on their wall or paste it in the scrapbook, or save it on their hard
drive as the case may be. I’m saying that that is just reality,
whether one likes it or not.

What is done with that image is where things get interesting. Do they
admire the image and marvel at the workmanship, maybe get a little
inspired by it, perhaps even learn something from it? Could happen, in
fact I’m saying it will happen, and is that really so bad? If you
really don’t want your work to be looked at in this way then don’t
publish images of it. If you do publish it then people will look at
it, think about it, hopefully admire it and yes, be inspired by it.
Whether they actually save the image or not is incidental really.

Or does your image get sent off to
name-your-cheapo-offshore-factory-here for mass production? Could
also happen, does happen, but this is obviously a lot less desirable
and is in fact a lot closer to the problem that I believe you are
concerned about.

The bottom line is that it’s not the saving of the image that is the
problem, it’s what’s done with it thereafter. As I hope I’ve made
clear there’s bugger all you can do about the saving part other than
lock the image up and keep it to yourself. What you chose to do about
proven abuse of that image is another story and probably a matter
between you and your legal counsel.

Fight the real problem, not the perceived potential for the
occurrence of a problem.

Cheers,
Trevor F.
in The City of Light
Visit TouchMetal.com at http://www.touchmetal.com

oh my gosh,

when i read the origianl reply to my requst, my heart just started
beating fast.

i in NO WAY would ever pull images and use them inappropriately. I
agree with the 2nd post that once you publish images in a public
setting that they can be used. i could just as well scan images from
magazines or books and use them, though this takes me much longer.

i just want to be clear about my intentions: i am using images that
i feel represent the technique of marriage of metals well. i am
using them for educational purposes, to show others who are learning
what can be done with the technique. i am really thrilled that i can
make a powerpoint demonstration in this way. i am able to represent
a variety of people and a variety of styles. the images i have found
on the web have given me a way to really educate people and
hopefully expand their creative ideas using this technique.

for every image i have saved, i have recorded the maker’s name and
info, and will give proper credit during my presentation.

i would never use an image to hurt or blaspheme a person or their
work.

i am also using an extensive amount of my own personal slides.
however, i make marriage of metal in one way. i find it thrilling to
use other images so i can really provid a good educational slide
show.

really, if i am wrong in doing this, i will be sure to operate in
another way. however, i feel strongly that the way i am using these
images would in no way be negative toward the artists.

sincerely,
joanna gollberg

this is very bad practice - and it is theft. Of an artist's image
and livelihood. 

A bit high and mighty don’t you think?? Every time YOU visit a
website your computer ‘pulls’ images off the web and stores them for
days/weeks/months in the cache on your hard drive - so maybe you are
a guilty as anyone else…

The only important matter is intent and, unless there is a
deliberate intention to steal another person’s intellectual property
(whatever that term might mean!!), then there is no case to answer.
Presumably, anyone putting images on the web does so with the
intention of them being viewed at any time and for any purpose - I
don’t remember ever seeing a site with a note saying ‘only look at
my images if you are intending to buy the piece’. Making a
reproduction piece from a published image is obviously wrong but it
is the making and not the saving of the image which is the crime.
Only directly publishing the image elsewhere contravenes criminal
codes and webmasters can try to protect against this by including
code in the pages to attempt to prevent saving the image. I say
‘try’ because virtually all methods are able to be bypassed.

I can see no problem whatever with images which are openly published
on the web being saved and used privately for inspiration or
educational reference.

Best wishes,
Ian

Ian W. Wright
SHEFFIELD UK

As a graphic designer (primarily), reading “pulling images off
websites” raised my hackles too! But I believe there is a “fair use”
exemption in the copyright laws when obtaining/using materials
strictly for educational purposes, which is what I think the
original poster, Joanna, was describing (a Powerpoint presentation to
a class).

There is excellent on fair use for educational purposes
on

http://www.utsystem.edu/OGC/intellectualProperty/copypol2.htm

and, the “teach act”

http://www.utsystem.edu/OGC/intellectualProperty/teachact.htm

There are various guidelines one needs to follow, according to this
site, such as:

  One must include any copyright notice that appears on the
  original, one must cite and attribute the source of the
  material, and obtain permission for materials that will be used
  repeatedly by an instructor for the same class. Some uses are
  only allowable by a "nonprofit" educational institution. Etc
  etc. 

Perhaps Joanna is already familiar with these guidelines. If not, I
think she may find these sites helpful.

Carolyn Rose
Houston, TX

Published images whether in print or on the internet have
copyrights. Any use of images which you do not own requires
permission of the owner.

If you are using images of other artist’s work from the internet for
educational purposes why not just contact the artists and ask for
permission to include their images in your presentation. It certainly
seems like the reasonable thing to do, and, if for whatever reason
someone declines to have their images included in your presentation
there won’t be an issue of an unauthorized use without prior consent.

If, as stated above, images were scanned from printed materials for
use without permission of the artist and the publication, whether or
not you felt it was in no way negative towards the artist, it might
not be legal or ethical. Respect the copyright, ask for permission
first. This is the correct protocol to follow.

Michael David Sturlin
www.michaeldavidsturlin.com

Well said Ian. “High and mighty” is the word. The intent that was
stated is to use the images for educational purposes, not mass
production, reproduction or copyright violation. We used to go to
the library and copy a photo out of a book for the same reason.
Research and education. I often save images that I admire or wish to
reference for technique. My work is on the web. I assume that others
are doing the same with my images. So…step away from the ledge. The
intent appears to be totally benign.

Lisa, (have a Happy Easter everyone…oh…and…Happy Passover, Happy
Mawlid an Nabi, Happy Hanuman Jayanti, Happy Baisaki, Happy
Therevadin Buddhist New Year, Happy Lazarus Saturday and Happy Palm
Sunday…! DId I miss anyone?) Topanga, CA USA

http://www.byzantia.com
http://www.lisajehle.blogspot.com

On this topic of using web based images –

if I had any marriage of metals images on my website, I would want
to be contacted so that I could provide a larger jpg. All of my
pictures on my website are low res, so that they load quickly, even
on a dial up.

I still had a dial up connection when I started my website, so that
was important to me. I hate slow loading websites.

So I would want the opportunity to provide the person with higher
quality images and my resume, etc. And it’s just nice to know whose
using what where.

Elaine

Elaine Luther
Metalsmith, Certified PMC Instructor
http://www.CreativeTextureTools.com
Hard to Find Tools for Metal Clay

I believe there is a "fair use" exemption in the copyright laws
when obtaining/using materials strictly for educational purposes, 

I would like to hear what fellow “orchidians” have to say about the
following situation:

You have your website posted with “All Designs COPYRIGHT” Date. Name
of Artist. and someone (that is located thousands of miles away)
e-mails you saying:

They are using an image of your design that they obtained from your
website, in a square of a quilt, which includes other squares of
images of “similar’ (in their opinion) art/craft items. They are
giving the quilt as a gift to a family member. Could they please
have a “statement from the artist about the piece” to include in a
booklet they are putting together to accompany the gift”.

They are not asking permission. It is “after the fact”.

When informed of professional, and legal protocol Re: copyright,
they reply - “well I did not mean to offend you - but, since I am
not selling your design or making any profit from it - it is not
violating copyright laws”.

They obviously totally do not get the concept of “theft of
intellectual copyright”.

Thanks, Linda

Linda

When informed of professional, and legal protocol Re: copyright,
they reply - "well I did not mean to offend you - but, since I am
not selling your design or making any profit from it - it is not
violating copyright laws". They obviously totally do not get the
concept of "theft of intellectual copyright"

I have watched this thread for a while and have been pretty amazed
at the different responses and the self serving views expressed in
some instances.

I do not know who said the “fair use exemption for educational
purposes”, but unless the law has changed in the last couple of
days, that statement is bull pucky. Try to get a release from
Microsoft, or Autocad to decompile their programs for classroom
examples of code writing or better yet, decompile them and make them
available to your students. You will learn in very short order
alligators are kind timid creature compared to the ones you are going
to meet. When working for Johnson & Johnson as an instructor, and
working for various colleges/schools if you did not have a release
document on file for what you were using or showing, first offence
was a written reprimand and the material withdrawn, second offense
and you were fired plain pure and simple. They did not want the risk.
Even for original documents and research the two times I used it the
dean had me sign a release for the school to use the material I had
created, or I could not use it in my class. The only time we were
able to use anything without having said document on file was if we
were using the book for the class, and I suspect that before we used
a book the school got a release, or it wasn’t used. At J&J we had
releases on file even for the mastectomies that were dissected to
show the relationships between scans and actual tumor locations,
density and size. The releases were from both the doctor and the
patient. Try getting your original medical records, the issue of
ownership pops up real quick.

In the example you site, yes it is infringement, but what would be
the gain of pursuing the issue if what is said is true. If on the
other hand, it is a slick way to get something from you for a quilt
intended for mass production. Now you have something that may
interest a lawyer to champion your cause. The distance issue is of
no value unless there is an international border crossed. In the case
of the music industry they went after those with funds who were
facilitating the violation, and enough of the aggressive down
loaders to get the rest of the population to take notice. On the
private individuals I do not know the results of those cases but
Napster made big news, big fines and lost a large portion of the
ownership of their company.

For those who think that there is an educational exemption, remember
this, you are providing the class for a fee, therefore, YOU and the
school are viable targets for a lawsuit. Depending on the insurance
or the state rules you may be covered. But I have signed some
employment agreements where the school will cover you unless they
loose the case. At that point in time you are on your own against
both the school and whoever brought the suit for assignment of
damages and you could be liable for the schools expense. Next time
you sign a contact with a school, read the fine print of ALL the
pages including the employee guidelines.

Arts may be different in that many items used no longer have clear
intellectual property ownership and are accepted as public domain,
but technology and software is very jealously guarded as to
copyright and patent and this is the arena my experience has been in.
If I were to teach a class on current jewelry trends and techniques,
I would have the permissions on file or the material would not be
seen in my classroom. You can give a web address you can site Title,
author and page as outstanding examples in a handout, but do not hand
out anyone else’s work in your classroom without a release on file.
Most schools and companies will already have had their legal
department draw up an acceptable form for the process, use it. It is
only modest protection, but it shows clear intent to perform in a
legal manner if doo doo hits the fan.

I have only taught in public schools in 3 states, there may be
differences in how this is handled. Copyrights and Patents are
federal protections so I don’t see where there is a lot of wiggle
room on the issue except in the employee/employer relationship.

And that’s my 2 cents.
Terry

Hello Terry,

I do not know who said the "fair use exemption for educational
purposes", but unless the law has changed in the last couple of
days, that statement is bull pucky. 

You did not follow the link, apparently, that led to a website which
spelled out the requirements for using materials for this “fair use”
educational purpose. It did not suggest a free-for-all, but rather
the permissions and procedures required. (and yes, the law is always
changing, with each legal case & decision and each passing day…)

I am not advocating the stealing of other’s images. I spent many
years as the art director of a pharmaceutical journal educating
well-meaning authors who submitted photos & illustrations (with
their manuscripts) that they “found” on the Internet. I’ve never
used, or allowed a client to use, an image without permission and
remuneration.

It’s probably not a great idea to extrapolate experience with one
form of intellectual property (the orange) to another very different
form (the apple). Software or artworks; copyrights vs. patents;
personal use vs. educational use vs. commercial use – these are not
identical nor are the legal decisions regulating them.

Terry and I probably would agree on the following: We all need to
respect others’ property – and to me it seems that even some usages
that are “legal” are not necessarily ethical.

By the way, if you don’t want the images on your web page stolen or
“borrowed” – add or have your website designer add the html code
that makes the image disappear (and a copyright notice appear in its
place) when someone mouses over the image to download it. (Hackers
probably have a work-around for this defense – but it will prevent
the casual borrower/quilt maker!)

And one should probably not rely on the
advise/opinions/rants/suggestions of those who have added their two
cents on this subject in this forum – including mine. When in doubt
as to your particular situation, research the law and/or consult an
attorney!

C. Rose
Houston Tx
(who is delighted to have learned a new term: “bull pucky”!!!)

Thanks C. Rose,

And, I agree with your comments, no I did not follow the link. But
you did indicate that ‘permissions’ were part of the process. Yes
strangely enough I have noticed how different entities react in a
dissimilar fashion to the same law. I guess, based on how the legal
beagles present it to their customers.

However, I do think the unqualified opinions shared on this subject
are worth every cent we pay for them.

Bull Pucky was the only expletive I could use as a kid that did not
get me close and personal with a bottle of Ivory and still use it on
special occasions. :slight_smile:

Terry

Hello C Rose,

if you don't want the images on your web page stolen or
"borrowed" -- add or have your website designer add the html code
that makes the image disappear (and a copyright notice appear in
its place) when someone mouses over the image to download it.
(Hackers probably have a work-around for this defense -- but it
will prevent the casual borrower/quilt maker!) 

On the top right hand side of my keyboard is a key marked ‘Print
Screen’ If I push this key the image of my screen is transferred to
my clipboard which can then be pasted into any graphics programme.
This is not hacking. The ONLY way to prevent copying is by NOT
publishing.

Tony.
Anthony Lloyd-Rees.
www.OpalsInTheBag.com
www.TheGemDoctor.com
Vancouver,
Beautiful British Columbia

On the top right hand side of my keyboard is a key marked 'Print
Screen' If I push this key the image of my screen is transferred to
my clipboard which can then be pasted into any graphics programme.
This is not hacking. The ONLY way to prevent copying is by NOT
publishing. 

…And on a Mac, I just click on the picture and drag it to my
desktop…things are so much easier on a Mac don’t you
think?..Sigh…What was that you said?..Oh yeah…"The ONLY way to
prevent copying is by NOT publishing. " Oooh…did I just copy that?
Hmmm…seems you are absolutely right…

:slight_smile: Lisa, (Went to the Chumash powwow today. Saw loads of old
friends, lots of bad jewelry, some very nice paintings, and I got me
a new shawl for dancing.) Topanga, CA USA

On the top right hand side of my keyboard is a key marked 'Print
Screen' If I push this key the image of my screen is transferred to
my clipboard which can then be pasted into any graphics programme.
This is not hacking. The ONLY way to prevent copying is by NOT
publishing. 

True. Thanks for providing this info, Tony. I’m on a Mac, and we can
do a “screen capture” which is the same thing as your “print screen”.

I was suggesting using the html code determent as a way to prevent
someone from directly downloading your high-resolution images (if you
have them). The “print screen” is a low-resolution capture, which is
not suitable for print reproduction… I guess because I’m from a
print-graphics background, I was only considering high-resolution
images valuable property. Anything else, to me, is just a
“thumbnail.” Useful for personal reference only.

But that’s possibly an oldfangled idea – the print screen/ screen
capture is of sufficient quality to be used to “re-publish” on the
web.

As you say, to publish is to be open to stealing, copying, etc. (But
where would we be if NO ONE published? )

Thanks,
C Rose
Houston

The discussion of “fair use” recently might benefit (or not???) from
this link to what the Copyright Office says on the matter:

What it fails to note very well is that----in the unlikely event
someone does sue (which is a requirement to enforce their
rights)—it is a nebulous “balance” of factors for the “specific
situation” that a particular court will decide on to reach a
conclusion. (A different court, or the next one up, may get a totally
different result.)

And, of course, the teacher who gets a cease and desist letter from
an image copyright owner’s attorney is free to quit using that
image----and the reference/link to the image owner and their
jewelry/products/web site. A result that is likely WORSE for said
owner than the cost of paying the attorney for the cease and desist
letter in the first place.

I think the OP pulling the images for classroom use was probably
well within the “fair use” guidelines, if, however, they should wish
to produce for sale these classroom materials then getting permission
from each image copyright owner would likely be a good plan (and a
third party publisher would likely require it)—even if still not
(per-whichever-court-should-it-come-to-that) essential.

James E. White

Your post and your honest, admirable intent came through loud and
clear. You should not have to apologize or further explain yourself
in any way. You are a goldmine (pun intended) of generous
!

The best of luck with your project!