Leonid, I need to do exactly this. Make a 9 titaniam ring with
channel set stones into a size 8. What exactly do you mean by filing
a facet on the inside of the ring? The band is 8 mm wide with an
inside rounded crossection. I would likely use sterling or pure
silver. Thanks for you help.
Dennis fisher
But your observations ignores the fact that with a solder joint, the presence of solder itself, a different metal compostion
Now, we come full circle. If joint soldered correctly, the
composition will be almost identical. The difference will be that
joint will be actually stronger.
Everybody was taught to make joints watertight, but for some reasons
nobody pays attention to this basic requirement.
I advise someone on the forum not to use any solders containing
zinc. That did not go well too.
I said that joints should be brought to red heat, but that was
ridiculed as well.
So here we are complaining about joints been crap. Well, if we make
them watertight, and use zinc free solder, and bring it to red heat,
the solder will drawn by capillary attraction very deeply and
actually improve the alloy. Violate any of the rules, and results
will be less than satisfactory.
Leonid Surpin
I need to do exactly this. Make a 9 titaniam ring with channel set stones into a size 8. What exactly do you mean by filing a facet on the inside of the ring? The band is 8 mm wide with an inside rounded crossection. I would likely use sterling or pure silver. Thanks for you help.
In order for the insert to stay in place, it is secured as hollow
rivet. Filling a facet means to enlarge inside diameter on both
edges of the inside of the ring. It is necessary to create a room for
the metal to expand when insert is secured. Facets should be only
large enough to secure the insert in place.
Leonid Surpin
If we take a prong and solder it in the middle. When load is applied, it is resisted by the whole length of the prong. Soldered joint conduct loads without any problems. I should add "correctly soldered joint". If we replace soldered joint with welded one, most of the load will be concentrated on the joint. Due to the difference in structure modulus of elasticity is very much different.
In industrial applications, engineers aware of that fact and make sure not to exceed structural loads in these areas. In goldsmithing it is quite another matter. Welding simply replaced soldered joint without any compensation for deficiency in conduction of the loads. What used to be soldered, now it is welded and that results in jewellery of inferior quality. And that is my point.
As to the question regarding the strength properties of a laser weld
verses a soldered joint, I believe the answer is that the strength
depends more on the details of the craftsmanship than which method
is used for joining. Both methods can lead to weak joints, but both
methods can also result in joints that have full strength.
As a structural engineer and a jeweler, I am qualified to comment on
matters of strength. If the weld is of the same material, then the
modulus of elasticity will be the same. In most cases, the solder
material will be a different alloy from the base material, so one
would expect the modulus to vary the most for a soldered joint. That
said, the modulus of elasticity will be almost the same (within one
or two percent). As with steels, the modulus of elasticity is not
typically the controlling factor when it comes to strength. The yield
strength and the total elongation to failure typically are far more
important for design and machining. Both the yield strength and total
elongation may be very different for the welded joint versus the
soldered joint.
Poor craftsmanship can cause laser welds or solder joints to be
weak. For example, improper cleaning of a surface to be laser welded
may result in cracking that can typically be seen just after the weld
solidifies. Solder joints can also be weak. For example, it is well
known that solder joints can crack if exposed to certain chemicals
used in swimming pools and hot tubes.
Incorrect welding techniques can lead to weak welds. For example,
you cannot expect a strong joint on a thick ring if the materials are
simply butted together and a surface weld is applied. As with
industrial welding, a V-notch will need to be used with the weld
built up from the center. Likewise, if the laser power is set too
high, boiling of the metal may result in small bubbles of gas trapped
in the melt pool. These small bubbles can act just like porosity in a
casting and weaken the solder joint.
Welded joints can be quite strong, having material properties that
sometimes exceed the base material. New laser manufacturing
techniques that laser sinter powdered metals have been found to have
a fine grain structure and are almost completely free of defects
typically seen in castings. I have used my laser welder to repair
castings where the welded material was later hammered and pushed onto
stones. If done correctly, you should not be able to tell that a part
has a laser welded or where a solder joint is (structurally or
aesthetically). In the end, it is the craftsman that will control the
quality that leads to the strength of the weld or the solder joint.
Leonid’s statement “What used to be soldered, now it is welded and
that results in jewellery of inferior quality.”, if true, may be due
more to poor craftsmanship than to an inherent weakness in laser
welds. I am interested in learning more about laser joining failures.
Are there herds of customers bringing their laser welded jewelry in
for repair due to laser joint failures? Maybe we can use such
examples to understand how to improve laser weld craftsmanship.
Respectfully,
Stephen Attaway
www.attawaygems.com
Well said. Any tool is only as good as the craftsman using it, and
any to ol is less effective in the hands of less skilled.
After over 30 years at the bench and over 8 now using a laser too, I
find both the torch and the laser each have uses they excel at over
the other, and other areas that same tool is not the be best choice.
Jim Newton
The laser is simply another tool. To say it is a crutch is like
saying to stay true to the art, one should stay primitive.
Our tools are to be likened as weapons in our arsenals. What soldier
would say "No thanks, I’ll keep my bow and quiver full of arrows."
when offered an automatic weapon? This would be ridiculous, since
every tool has it’s place. It COULD be a crutch if someone were to
have more dollars than sense, (pun intended.) and a lack of bench
experience, decided to go out one day and buy a laser welder so that
they could compete with the guy across town, then yes I guess it
would be a crutch by definition.
Both methods can lead to weak joints, but both methods can also result in joints that have full strength.
The simple point is that comparing two identical joints, under
identical environment, executed to the best standards, one been lazer
weld and another been soldered, the soldered joint will always be
stronger.
Leonid Surpin
Leonid,
Set you torch on minimum. It is ok if it would be so low that you cannot even melt the solder. It is perfectly fine. Once you found that point, make flame a little hotter and try again. In very short order, you will find a setting which melts the solder, but not the gold or silver. Whatever metal you are working with. After that you are home. Just keep moving the torch all the time, so the heat is even and watch the solder to flow, That is all there is to it. And of course do not forget to apply flux
Thanks so much for puting this in your post. I have been having torch
problems and can’t get it right so now someone ‘YOU’ have told me how
to maybe get it right. THANK YOU THANK YOU
Sue
If joint soldered correctly, the composition will be almost identical. The difference will be that joint will be actually stronger.
While brazed joints can be excellent, high strength joints they are
not stronger than the base metals for a variety of reasons.
Everybody was taught to make joints watertight, but for some reasons nobody pays attention to this basic requirement.
If they are truly watertight then the solder will not flow in them
either. Tight joints with very fluid solders need at least a couple
of thousandths (.05 mm) gap so that capillary action can draw the
molten solder into the gap.
I advise someone on the forum not to use any solders containing zinc. That did not go well too.
What would you suggest as a formula for such a solder? Would you use
cadmimum to replace the zinc?
James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts
The simple point is that comparing two identical joints, under identical environment, executed to the best standards, one been lazer weld and another been soldered, the soldered joint will always be stronger.
This is pure BS and totally unsupported by anything other than your
opinion. While one might be able to contrive a situation where the
soldered joint would be stronger in the overwhelming amount of
situations a properly executed weld will always outperform a
soldered joint.
James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts
So here we are complaining about joints been crap. Well, if we make them watertight, and use zinc free solder, and bring it to red heat, the solder will drawn by capillary attraction very deeply and actually improve the alloy. Violate any of the rules, and results will be less than satisfactory.
True enough, especially if you add that the heat has to be held long
enough for the different componants of the solder (perhaps just
higher copper content) to fully diffuse into the parent metal. This
might not be all that long, but a solder joint done very quickly,
even if heated to red heat, might be of slightly lower quality. But
done as you state, a solder joint will indeed end up with little
compositional difference in what was the joint. But not every joint,
especially when we talk about jewelry repair, rather than making a
new piece of jewelry, offers the luxury of using the higher melting
grades of solder that “zinc free” usually means. And sometimes, for
the same reasons, prolongued heating or heating to a red heat,
simply isn’t an option with jewelry repairs. If you’re making a new
piece of jewelry, then of course, proper planning and craftsmanship
makes it possible to get uniformly high quality solder joints.
Peter.
Hello Leonid,
Yes, I believe that soldering problems are mostly mental. I am really
scared of melting my metals. I seem to melt the metal before the
solder melts. The first gold that I soldered on belonged to my
father. I managed to save the design area but the rest is the ring
melted before my eyes. My Mentor, told me not to cry, that it could
be fixed, but so far I haven’t tried to fix it. My Mentor, passed
away Oct. 1998, and outside of taking classes at Modesto Jr.
College, I haven’t been able to find anyone to work with. Now, I have
Denise Jenkins, and she said she would help me get through this
problem. I have to wait until my surgery heals before trying to
solder again. Probably another week or so. I will try soldering the
way you suggest. I know my flame is probably too hot too fast, so I
will slow down and lighten up. I really appreciate your taking the
time to guide me.
Veva
True enough, especially if you add that the heat has to be held long enough for the different componants of the solder (perhaps just higher copper content) to fully diffuse into the parent metal. This might not be all that long, but a solder joint done very quickly, even if heated to red heat, might be of slightly lower quality. But done as you state, a solder joint will indeed end up with little compositional difference in what was the joint.
To do this you need ridiculous amounts of time for the amount of
material that even a small amount of solder will impart to the
joint. The process is a high tech form of brazing called “transient
liquid phase diffusion bonding”. To get the brazing alloy to diffuse
away to the point of virtually disappearing you need to apply
incredibly thin layers. In this process the braze alloy is often
applied with vapor phase deposition because even very brief duration
electroplating will put too much material in place. So for the amount
of alloy you would put place with even the tinniest speck of solder
it would take many hours or even days at high temperatures for it to
diffuse to the point of effectively disappearing.
James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts
Opinion, repeated continually, remains just that: opinion.
There is a reason why there is a torch on one end of my bench, and a
laser at the other. They are each a tool that is the best choice for
specific jobs, because they produce better results for that
particular application.
Jim Newton
Yes, I believe that soldering problems are mostly mental. I am really scared of melting my metals. I seem to melt the metal before the solder melts.
Can I tell a short story? Rhetorical question. I love stories.
There was a monk in one monastery, who was pursuit by visions of
Satan telling him to climb bell tower in the middle of the night and
ring church bell. He was resisting it with all his might, but with
every vision Satan arguments were growing more pervasive and the
monk resistance getting weaker and weaker. One day not been able to
contain it within himself, he told about his visions to chief abbot.
Abbot looked at him and said “why don’t you climb the tower and ring
the bell then”.
Take some metal and destroy it with the torch. Just relax and
whatever you afraid of doing, just do it. After that, get back to
soldering.
Leonid Surpin
totally unsupported by anything other than your opinion.
If I may enquire, what do you have to support your opinion? Some
comparative study, with micro-photographs comparing two, will be
nice.
Leonid Surpin
To do this you need ridiculous amounts of time for the amount of material that even a small amount of solder will impart to the joint. The process is a high tech form of brazing called "transient liquid phase diffusion bonding".
That is a real fancy name, so I will offer a bit less spooky. The
technique of forge welding developed after the technique of forging
was understood. So how blacksmiths were joining things together? They
were soldering using pure copper. Bring iron or steel to red heat,
dip copper wire in borax and apply to the joint. That is all there is
to it.
I have a rotary hammer which I made myself by this method. Short
piece of old bur, copper soldered to long piece of old bur in cross
like configuration. After 20+ years of use, the joint still holds and
forces on joint are significant.
Incidentally, ( I must promote myself any chance I get ) on my DVD
the technique of high temperature soldering is shown.
Leonid Surpin
That is a real fancy name, so I will offer a bit less spooky. The technique of forge welding developed after the technique of forging was understood. So how blacksmiths were joining things together? They were soldering using pure copper. Bring iron or steel to red heat, dip copper wire in borax and apply to the joint. That is all there is to it.
I use forge welding in some of my work so I am quite familiar with
it and have done forge brazing on occasion also. Forge welding and
forge brazing are two different techniques and WTF does either have
to do with your rant on soldering? The only the only thing they share
is they are all metal joining techniques.
I have a rotary hammer which I made myself by this method. Short piece of old bur, copper soldered to long piece of old bur in cross like configuration. After 20+ years of use, the joint still holds and forces on joint are significant.
Again what does that prove, a properly welded joint would have held
up as well.
Incidentally, (I must promote myself any chance I get ) on my DVD the technique of high temperature soldering is shown.
I am assuming this is the real reason for your reply.
James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts
Hi Leonid,
At least in the States, “forge welding” means something else. The
copper wire+steel trick is a variation on what we’d call brazing.
Very high temp, but just a braze, not a weld. Lots of blacksmiths use
it, especially European types, but it’s not actually welding.
Actual forge welding is just iron-to-iron. No copper, no nothing
(except flux). The trick is to get the iron to just below melting
temp, and then pound it with a heavy hammer. The extra energy from
the hammer blows kicks it over the energy curve required to get the
two pieces to fuse.
Ever notice when you’re forging iron at a low red heat, that you can
actually see the steel get brighter in the spots where you’ve just
hit it? You’re dumping in quite a bit of energy with that 1 kilo
hammer. The blacksmith I started out with would sometimes light his
forge by way of taking a 1/2" iron rod, and pounding the end of it
until it was hot enough to start paper on fire. Didn’t take too long,
either. (But then again, he claimed (believably) to have been the
inspiration for “Haggar the Horrible”. Not a dainty little guy.)
Remember I said I used to make swords? I’ve done lots of forge
welding.
Regards,
Brian.
have to do with your rant on soldering?
I am very sorry, that you choose to characterize my post as “rant”.
However, ad hominem attacks is not a substitute for showing what
basis do you have for your opinion. If I may remind you that you
still did not provide any shed of evidence to support what you say.
Leonid Surpin