It looks worse than it actually is. I would say that it is safer than using large polishing unit.
I’m not directing this at Leonid, really, but to the larger audience
of Orchid reading everything.
I knew a man who had no fingers, once. All eight of them sheared off
just off the palms of his hands. It happened in a heartbeat…
1/2 or 2hp motor, one inch endmill (for half inch tool steel stock,
whichmakes a fine missile, too), plus your two puny hands
Water apparently cools the steel too fast and makes it brittle, while oil is more gradual and even
If this is the case, how about quenching steel in denatured alcohol?
I use it sometimes with sterling, and it does apparently cool more
slowly and lessen thermal shock. Would it work as a less messy
alternative to oil?
Allan
Water apparently cools the steel too fast and makes it brittle, while oil is more gradual and even
This is not correct. To know which cooling medium you need to use you
must know which typer of steel you are using. If you cool water
hardening steel in oil it will not harden as it will be too slow so
the martensite structure will all be lost. When you harden tool steel
you are trying to freeze a particular crystal structure or phase that
exist only at elevated temperatures in the steel. If you cool it fast
enough you will retain this structure (martensite) which is very hard
and brittle. So in many (but not all ) tool steels you need to temper
it after hardening to allow some but not all of the martensite to
dissolve back into the low temperature crystal structure. By
controlling the amount of heat applied you can control how much
martensite remains and how hard the tool is. You are trading hardness
for toughness and your application will determine what that balance
needs to be. A tool that is struck like a punch needs to be more on
the tough side but a scalpel needs to be very hard to maintain a
ultra sharp edge.
James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts
I write in haste to recommend strongly against quenching anything
very hot in alcohol or any volatile inflammable liquid. Heavy oil,
while flammable, is not volatile.
Even a quite small piece of work, if it is above kindling
temperature of the liquid (or its vapour) as is surely the case if
you have heated a piece of steel to annealing temperature, will
ignite the alcohol (or whatever) and you have an instant container
of flaming liquid fire to deal with. A larger piece can produce not
only ignition but spattering of flaming liquid as well.
What would be the point of using the alcohol anyway? It would not
lend any particularly useful qualities to the steel or to the
quenching process. It may have a lower specific heat number than
water (as oil does) but its volatility (lower vapourizing temp)
means faster conversion from liquid to gas which change of state
would occasion a faster, not slower, absorption of heat from the
steel, just the opposite of what you want to do.
One of the other most nasty things about alcohol fires is that the
flames are often very pale and difficult to see so you don’t even
know you’ve got a fire burning until you feel it, which is way too
late for my taste.
Finally, the vapours from denatured alcohol may not kill you on the
spot, but they are noxious (look it up) and should be avoided. So
why do you want to create denatured alcohol fumes in your workspace?
Good luck,
Marty Hykin
Hi James,
This is not correct. To know which cooling medium you need to use you must know which typer of steel you are using. If you cool water hardening steel in oil it will not harden as it will be too slow so the martensite structure will all be lost.
Well said, but I will add.
Some water hardening steel can be oil quenched, and with some alloys
it can be a benefit, but like you said it pays to know the specs of
the alloy.
I don’t know if many of the group will relate to “mystery metal”, or
“found metal”, it’s more of an ideological philosophy to do with
recycling more than anything else. I digress “mystery metal” is just
that, you may get an idea, but you never know for sure.
An example, I was give some metal from my father, and it was
horrible to work. A spark test showed that it had value as tool
steel, but no matter what I tried, it just would not perform… turns
out it was an air hardening tool steel… which my Dad neglected to
tell me, and I forgot to ask, assuming he wouldn’t know (shame on
me).
Regards Charles A.
There are two major drawbacks to using ethanol/methanol as a
quenching agent. The first is that I would worry about the
flammability of an alcohol.
The flash point temperatures of ethanol, methanol and isopropyl
alcohol are all about 50 degrees F. Further, they can all form
explosive mixtures with air (I am not sure of the actual value but
think that ethanol vapor can explode at a minimal concentration in
air of about 10%. You could not stay in the room with alcohol vapor
at that level so I don’t worry about this issue unless you spill a
large amount. Flame will follow a vapor trail from alcohol back to
the source of the vapor). It would make as much sense to quench
heated metal in a bath of petrol or gasoline. Further, each time it
as used it would become warmer and release larger amounts of vapor.
The “heat content” of these alcohols (amount of heat produced when
burned) is not much different from that of liquefied natural
gas–significant. I would say that you should not try this at home.
Considering this, oil, though flammable, is much more forgiving. It
can be wiped or washed off. In critical cases, annealing and
tempering of steel are best carried out using a
temperature-controlled furnace. In making blades and chisels, I use
water for quenching. It works.
Gerald Vaughan
When you harden tool steel you are trying to freeze a particular crystal structure or phase that exist only at elevated temperatures in the steel. If you cool it fast enough you will retain this structure (martensite)
Since Jim continued this thread, I’ll say it again because it bears
repeating, here. One of the problems of using scrap steel or Allen
wrenches is that you don’t know, probably, if it’s water hardening
or oil - or air, which I’ve never used, myself. You can get decent
results anyway, often, but you just don’t know.
With that said - to make some decorative stamp that you’re going to
hit with a hammer, all you need to do is heat it to red and quench
(in the proper medium), and then temper it. To anneal it you heat it
to red and cool it as slowly as possible. Don’t get all confused
about the details that many have posted here - it’s just a simple
stamp, not rocket science.
With THAT said - there is little in this world that has been studied
so much and is so well understood by materials science as steel.
There are whole libraries on it and it’s truly fascinating. I’d
suggest that the more you know about it the better off you’ll be.
When you get into tool and die work then they have hardening and
tempering kilns and carbeurizing dips and soak times and liquid
nitrogen… On and on, and it’s fascinating and good to know.
And it’s ~very~ good to know the why of how it all works. But for
making simple stamps and tools - refreshing the points on beading
tools, whatever, there’s no need to make it complicated. Heat,
quench, temper, done.
Some water hardening steel can be oil quenched, and with some alloys it can be a benefit, but like you said it pays to know the specs of the alloy.
Like many “rules” if you know what you are doing you can sometimes
bend them and achieve a desired result. But such bending can result
in a failed project too so for people clearly don’t understand the
basics it is best to stick with the “rules” till enough experience
is gained to bend them.
James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts
What would be the point of using the alcohol anyway? It would not lend any particularly useful qualities to the steel
Marty’s quote…
there is little in this world that has been studied so much and is so well understood by materials science as steel.
And my own… I’m far, far from a steel expert. There are people
here who know a lot more, and I’d hazard to say that they’re probably
not really experts either, in the greater scheme of things.
One thing I do know is that there are people who’s sole purpose in
life is to make small batches of steel with a millionth more or less
of carbon and all sorts of other things, and then testing the
bejeezers out of what they get right down to examining the crystal
structures with electron microscopes. Out of those thousands of
alloys, the ones that concern us most on this thread are O-1, oil
hardening tool steel, and W-1, water hardening.
There’s like a 99% chance that any tool you buy in the hardware
store is made from one or the other. Ditto for beading tools, burs
and trademark stamps. Those are the workhorse (tool) steels of the
world.
The point… W-1 steel was designed by steel designers to give
optimum results when hardened and tempered in water, and O-1 the
same in oil.
It’s not an accident, they were ~designed~ to act like that. Meaning
that using anything else is going to give inferior results, maybe
noticeable, maybe not. And it’s not just that, if one desires, one
can go find the complete specs of how to pull every last Brinell
point out of them down to the tenth. “heat to 850c (made up) for 13
1/2 minutes, quench in 10c water” etc. It’s science, not accident or
serendipity. If it’s W-1, use water. Not ketchup, not hand lotion,
not bearnaise sauce. Water.
Hi John,
It's science, not accident or serendipity. If it's W-1, use water. Not ketchup, not hand lotion, not bearnaise sauce. Water.
Agreeing with you. However, there is the rare time when one might
consider quenching W1 in oil (or brine). That is if you had a very
thin tool and you wanted it to have the same mixed layers of crystals
you get in a thick tool when it cools (because a thick tool loses
heat slowly you actually get multiple types of crystals in it -
theoretically lending it toughness). Then you might consider slowing
the rate down, with say brine, or oil. This is however a rare case
and any improvement in use is rather subtle…
best
charles
The point....... W-1 steel was designed by steel designers to give optimum results when hardened and tempered in water, and O-1 the same in oil.
W-1is a good example of what can be done with a tool steel.
W-1 “can” be quenched in water, but it can also can be quenched in
oil, and for certain applications oil is better. Quenching in oil
prevents warping, cracks and distortion.
It’s like James said, check the alloy specs, and asking questions
doesn’t hurt.
Regards Charles A.
Like many "rules" if you know what you are doing you can sometimes bend them and achieve a desired result. But such bending can result in a failed project too so for people clearly don't understand the basics it is best to stick with the "rules" till enough experience is gained to bend them.
We’re definitely in agreement with this, of course if you ask
someone with more knowledge, and they tell you it’s fine, that’s also
a good way to go 
Regards Charles A.
Marty wrote... I write in haste to recommend strongly against quenching anything very hot in alcohol or any volatile inflammable liquid. Heavy oil, while flammable, is not volatile.
I worked for a man once who was convinced that red hot gold was best
quenched in alcohol. Supposed to make it softer. Although I never
noticed a difference I did it from time to time to keep him happy. A
bit too exciting for even for my rash youthful days. There was a jar
(with metal lid) of alcohol and boracic for fire coating always
handy. No big fires nor burnt down buildings but in general a VERY
bad idea. There are easier, quicker, and less painful ways to kill
your self
jeffD
Demand Designs
Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing
http://www.gmavt.net/~jdemand
because a thick tool loses heat slowly you actually get multiple types of crystals in it - theoretically lending it toughness). Then you might consider slowing the rate down, with say brine, or oil. This is however a rare case and any improvement in use is rather subtle.....
Charles writes of a very good example when you bend, break or twist
the rules because you ~know~ how and why. Our Aussie Charles said
some of the same, too. The real thing (that’s been made here, I
think) is that it is very, very simple to do what this thread is
about - How to make your own jewelry stamps. Follow “the rules” and
you’ll get optimal results.
Now, if you’re doing tool-and-die or making firing pins for a
weapons system on an F-16 or making 10,000 allen wrenches a day,
then everything becomes much more serious and important. And you
might go to alloy steels and many of those people use hardening
services, where that’s all they do is harden and temper steel by
contract. Serious stuff and way over my head, beyond a simple
understanding of it. I’m sorry that I really don’t remember
(shouldn’t write it, maybe) but I saw a spot about a man who’d
invented atrick way to harden some certain car part - wheel bearings
or something - by heating in place and spraying with liquid nitrogen
or something like that. And he does it for all of Detroit, pretty
much, because it’s patented. Sorry, I forget the details of it now.
Steel is serious business, much of the world is made of it, not to
mention cars and tractors and watch gears and refrigerators. You can
always learn more…
I went poking around a bit with a sandwich in the other hand, and
found a heat treating company with a nice page describing what all
they do. I’m posting it to show the complexity of it all, and what it
can take to know what’s up with the topic. Not suggesting people need
to know all the stuff, or that they should do business there. It’s
just interesting…
John,
Funny so did I.
Interesting slide presentation here
Kay
I was reading through the posts on matching finishing techniques
with steel types, but I was wondering, is there a way to test the
steel for the type? I’m actually using a box of steel nails left over
from a project, but the box doesn’t specify what type of steel it is
(I don’t imagine too many people would need to know).
Also, is there a way to tell if the finishing process has been done
properly? I tried heating the working ends to bright red, cooling in
oil, then heating to straw and quenching in oil again. I’m just not
sure how to tell if the stamps will last through a few more whacks.
Kyle “Kui” Komoda
Hi there,
You can tell if a piece of steel is mild, medium or tool steel by
the spark
best
Charles
Hi Kyle,
In general the steel in nails isn’t that good for a stamp, you could
use them, but you’d need to use a super quench mixture, and even then
the heat treatment doesn’t last.
Brite steel nails are nice for a lot of things, and as a low carbon
alloy they can come in handy when you forge weld them with higher
carbon alloys. A good way to do test patterns.
If you want to recycle, then your best bet are black spring washers.
Straighten, then forge them to shape, heat treat… they make an
excellent tool… considering they cost bugger all (Australian
trans:- “Bugger all” = “not very much”).
If you have a piece of recycled metal, then a spark test will give
you an idea if your recycled metal will work for tools.
Regards Charles A.
Also, is there a way to tell if the finishing process has been done properly? I tried heating the working ends to bright red, cooling in oil, then heating to straw and quenching in oil again. I'm just not sure how to tell if the stamps will last through a few more whacks.
You are absolutely correct. Before investing time in creating any
kind of tool, one must determine if prospective steel is an
appropriate one.
Goldsmiths are limited in this respect, because we are not
metallurgists and therefore have to constrain our explorations in
tool making to what we can determine. I recommend working only with
high carbon steel and leave other alloys alone.
The question arises who to tell on from another without
sophisticated equipment and the answer is spark test. Take you steel
to grinding wheel and examine the spark. If you never been to machine
shop before it may be difficult, so here is what you do. Buy carbon
steel graver, not the high speed one and use it for comparison. High
carbon steel spark is quite unique and in a short while you will be
able to recognize it.
If you are not sure of your steel hardening, then one heating method
is not for you. You will have to use separate heating for hardening
and tempering. When you do your hardening, make sure that you have
cooling medium in sufficient volume to do the job. I have seen people
trying to harden in a glass of water and it never works.
After hardening, test tool with an old file. If hardening was
successful, it should feel like you are trying to file glass. If file
bites, you are going to have to do it again. If file slides like on
glass, you can go to tempering stage.
Separating tempering from hardening presents many problems if you
temper to straw or lighter. There is no room to go into detail, so
temper to dark straw or even blue. You are not making tool for 100000
impressions, so you do not have squeeze every last unit of hardness.
A good way to temper, if you do not have special equipment is in
molten lead, which produces somewhere between 53 and 55 Rockwell.
Such tool if you do not abuse it, will serve for years. I still have
my repousse tools made this way, and I have been using it for 40
years.
So here is what you do. Take you melting pot for lead with lead in
it at room temperature. Place you tool in the pot, and put pot on the
small fire, like you cooking porridge. When tool sinks, you done.
Just take it out before lead solidifies. You can grease the tool, so
lead would not stick.
If you need to temper to more than 55 Rockwell, you can use alloy of
lead, tin, and bismuth to obtain alloy with required melting point.
Leonid Surpin