How do you know you're running low?

Jewelry Discussion
21

Teri -

Sorry to hear you are losing your studio! But the home ‘office’ is
not a bad thing. Do you have a garage? If so, then keep your tank in
there, chained to the wall furthest from the house. IF it must be
outside, make a small insulated shed RIGHT NEXT TO the house so the
temperatures are moderated (even orchids can survive freezing
weather snuggled up to the outer wall of a house kept at 68 degrees,
and when in a protected location). Yes, you will have to drill
through the outer wall structure of a house, but that’s not fatal.
I"ve done that three times…once for a phone line, and twice for a
cat door.

A storage unit may not be a good choice unless it is climate
controlled. From a thermodynamics point of view, so long as you
don’t exceed temperature limits of the tank (or gas), just make sure
you don’t have fast temperature swings. That’s why you need either
climate control (expensive) or a climate-protected, insulated place
(not-as-expensive).

(Disclaimer: I live in Florida.) With regards to your garage, that
is the best place from a cost-advantage and work-advantage point of
view. The money you will spend on a garage upgrade will soon cover
the cost of a rental unit. Besides, you don’t know what toxic
monstrosities your ‘neighbors’ in the rental storage unit have hidden
from the law…it’s frightening, the stuff that goes in there.

22

Oh yes I remember the toxic fumes from the neighboring storage units
and chemical spills I treated like toxic waste from a sci fi movie
lol

No garage old old house insultated and against the protected side of
the house sounds good I have cable holes etc not against drilling so
you go outside and turn on the torch then shut it down at work end?

Adding on a one car garage may be cheaper in the long run than
fiddling with sheds etc…hmm have to chew on it for a bit lol

Teri
Silver & Cameo Heritage Jewelry
www.corneliusspick.com

23

Thanks we will have one week of wind chills -20 to 30 a winter but I
can always move the tank inside when weather gets like this I won;t
be working out there anyway lol

Teri
Silver & Cameo Heritage Jewelry
www.corneliusspick.com

24 
(5) SLOWLY open oxygen cylinder valve all the way.

Jim, thanks for the outline. The above item is the only one in which
my custom varies from your instructions. I have always opened the
oxy valve just a quarter turn, just like the fuel. I have heard
instructions both ways, and I think there was a back-and-forth here
some time ago, and something about “it depends how old your
regulator is”.

I reason that if it is only open a little, it is easy to shut off in
a hurry if need be. What is the reason to open it all the way, and
does it outweigh the convenience and safety of opening just enough?

Thanks,
Noel

25 
Your suggestion of leaving the regulator pressure adjusting screw
engaged is incorrect and a fire and explosion safety hazard. Just
because you have not had a accident from this practice does not
make it safe.

This is really amazing,

I will repeat one more time and than I give up.

In any well made regulator, the diaphragm has higher modulus of
elasticity than PSI rating of the regulator. If anyone using
regulator which does not conforms to this principal, than stretching
the diaphragm is the least of their problems.

If practice of leaving regulator on the same setting is somehow is
dangerous, then it also applies to using the regulator in day to day
practice.

Please read this at least 3 times and understand what it means.

Granted that my equipment is more than 20 years old and if the new
design of regulators makes such practice unsafe, than this regulator
is unsafe to use period.

Leonid Surpin

26

Hi Noel,

I have always opened the oxy valve just a quarter turn, just like
the fuel.

The reason to open the oxy tank valve all the way is the pressure
the oxy is under in the tank, about 2000 psi in a freshly filled
tank.

The valve on the oxy tanks is a double seated valve. What that means
is the valve stem has a portion of it that matches perfectly with a
seat in the body of the valve when the valve is closed & another
portion that matches a seat at the upper end when the valve is FULLY
open.

These two seats are necessary because the valve stem packing cannot
withstand the 2000 psi pressure & a fair amount of oxy will leak if
the valve isn’t opened all the way. If you haven’t been opening the
oxy valve all the way & now begin to open it all the way, you should
see your oxy consumption fall due to not leaking oxy from the open
valve.

Fuel gases on the other hand are not stored at such high pressures &
the valve stem packing can contain the gas when the valve is only
partially open.

Another reason that the fuel gas tank valve is only opened 1/4 - 1/2
turn is this. It takes 2 things for a fire, fuel & oxy. Remove
either one & the fire goes out. Since there’s always oxy in the air,
that can’t be removed. However closing the fuel gas tank valve will
remove that portion of the fire equation. It takes a lot less time
to give the fuel tank valve 1/2 turn or less than it does to give it
many turns.

The above apply to refillable tanks, not the small disposable tanks
whose regulators have no gauges.

Dave

27

Jim,

Your directions regarding Tanks and Torches, is exactly as our
instructor, Jay Whaley teaches his TA’s and Students. He brings up
another point, which may go over like a lead balloon with many
women.

Jay, from 20 years of observation, has concluded, that many women
are not aware of the universal directions of on and off. After
consideration, I sort of agree, and put myself in that class. I
admit to a left right confusion from childhood. Not sure why, but I
had to image my kitchen wall, and then knew the hand closest to it,
the one I ate with, was my right.

Jay has a phrase he repeats, “righty tighty, lefty loosy.” Turning
faucets automatically, did not register. Tooth paste caps, etc. I
use that phrase, when I want to adjust either the hot or cold tap,
filling my bath. Now close in the correct direction.

I open the Studio several days, and turn on the torches, both at the
benches, oxygen, natural gas, and also the soldering station
acetylene, oxygen. Many mornings, the valves are turned totally in
the opposing direction, from where they should be. Jay reiterates,
that some cannot process on and off correctly.

Not a criticism, just an observation.
Terrie

28 
I have heard instructions both ways, and I think there was a
back-and-forth here some time ago, and something about "it depends
how old your regulator is" I reason that if it is only open a
little, it is easy to shut off in a hurry if need be.

It has nothing to do with the age or type of the regulator. The
reason for opening the tank valve all the way on oxygen tanks is
that the valve is designed to seal in two positions one, in the fully
closed position and second, in the fully opened or “backseated”
position. In between these two positions the valve can leak around
the stem packing. I think that it is probably prudent to stick with
the ANSI recommendations and open the valve all the way as they have
done the research on both the engineering and accident investigation
to come up with these guidelines.

Jim

James Binnion
@James_Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

360-756-6550

29 
This is really amazing, I will repeat one more time and than I give
up. In any well made regulator, the diaphragm has higher modulus of
elasticity than PSI rating of the regulator. If anyone using
regulator which does not conforms to this principal, than
stretching the diaphragm is the least of their problems.

The danger is not from the failure of the diaphragm but the damage
caused by 2000 psi gas rushing into the regulator when opening the
tank valve. The erosion of the high pressure orifice from
particulate matter in the gas stream causing leakage that results in
pressure creep and over pressurization of the low pressure side of
the regulator. Or a worst case scenario if the regulator is used in
oxygen service, the ignition of the brass orifice from the rapid
pressurization of the regulator when the tank valve is opened too
rapidly causing a catastrophic regulator failure. This is why the
recommended practice is to back off the pressure adjusting screw when
shutting down the system.

The diaphragm is designed to be operated repeatedly. I would be
highly surprized to find any reputable manufacturer that used a
diaphragm that did not have a design life of more than 10,000
cycles. If you set the pressure when you turn on the tanks in the
morning and release it at night then for a 5 day work week 10,000
cycles would give over 19 years of use.

James Binnion
@James_Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

360-756-6550

30

Teresa,

The left-right confusion is a fact of life for many people, and I’ve
known several of them. My issue isn’t that, but more a fear of being
too tired or hurried or distracted when closing up for the day. The
solution I came up with is low-tech but effective: by each tank
there is a laminated diagram and step-by-step written instructions
for opening and closing valves. It’s fool-proof (assisted by a
red-lettered TANKS? note by the alarm pad.) At the end of the day, I
actually read the instructions as I shut things down, a slow quiet
meditation on safety.

Elna in Berkeley, where the irises are fragrant, the students are
leaving town, and the breezes are warm.

31

Dear Mr. Surpin:

In any well made regulator, the diaphragm has higher modulus
of elasticity than PSI rating of the regulator. If anyone using
regulator which does not conforms to this principal, than
stretching the diaphragm is the least of their problems. If
practice of leaving regulator on the same setting is somehow is
dangerous, then it also applies to using the regulator in day to
day practice.

Your comments do not take into consideration any factors of outside
influence or wear over time. In theory and in practice your original
advise, and continued advise in regard to the use of regulators is
incorrect. It is also in direct contradiction with the recommended
safety practices of the American Welding Society and several other
educational bodies, and a number of regulator companies themselves.
Mr. Binnion has cited you some of the exact specifications. In simple
terms, the recommendations by Mr. Binnion are correct, yours are
incorrect and unsafe in this one area. Your methods increase the
possibility of an “unsafe event” (fire or explosion). As a firm often
called in after such an event, highly qualified in this specific
area, I would ask you to do some additional research, and for the
safety of others, not recommend or teach this procedure. Doing a
thing wrong without an accident for 20 years does not make it
correct, in theory or practice.

Best Regards,
Gary

Gary W. Miller, Sr. Technical Advisor
Spirig Advanced Technologies, Inc.
www.spirig.org

32

Since I got some interesting emails off the list, I would like point
out that what follows is my opinion only, and only for the purpose of
the intellectual pursuit. It is up to every individual to decide on
her own which practices to implement in conducting their business.
Nothing which is to follow should be considered or interpreted as
recommendation, or instruction, or inducement to act in any
particular way.

All right, that should make my lawyer happy.

Mr. Miller and whoever still interested in the subject,

Let’s assume we have a tank containing gas (any gas you want). The
gas, for argument sake will be at 200 psi (that is pounds per square
inch) Let also assume that we have regulator attached to the tank,
and we have a torch attached to the regulator via hose.

As I understand, the concern is when tank is open and diaphragm is
subjected to the initial pressure, it is o.k. in neutral position (
no gas getting through ), but if it in deflected position (some gas
getting through) that is somehow detrimental.

Let’s explore both cases.

Scenario A: Diaphragm in neutral position.

when we open the tank, the diaphragm will be exposed to the same
pressure as the tank walls. why?

Boyle’s Law P1V1 = P2V2

Since volume between diaphragm and the valve is minimal, we can
approximate V1 = V2 and therefore P2 = P1. Consequently the diaphragm
exposed to the same pressure as tank walls.

Scenario B: Diaphragm in deflected position.

when we open the tank, the diaphragm will be exposed to less
pressure than tank wall. why?

The same Boyle’s Law P1V1 = P2V2

however the volume between tank valve is not the space between valve
and diaphragm, but also volume of the second chamber of the
regulator plus volume of the hose attached. Since diaphragm in
deflected position, by the corollary of the Gay-Lussac’s Law of
Combined Volumes, the V2 (combined volume) is larger and therefore P2
is smaller. The diaphragm now is exposed to less pressure. As an
additional benefit due to increased volume V2, build up of the
pressure is slower due to amortization effect of gas from the tank
initially expanding to the larger volume because of diaphragm in
deflected position. ( there is no initial rush )

I rest my case.

If someone wants to respond, please address issue factually. Do not
quote manuals, recommendations, and etc. If you see a flaw in my
logic, then pointed out, otherwise it does not make sense to
continue.

33

I just got two regulators back from being rebuilt. We have 38
regulators here. Smith, Uniweld, Tescom, Goss, Victor, Prestolite.
This makes six regulators that have been rebuilt this year. One was
due to the gauge being damaged. Person that rebuilt them told me the
others were from adjusting screw not being backed out when the tanks
were turned on. Students often do not back off the adjusting screw
when shutting off tanks at night and other students do not check and
back the adjusting screw out when turning on the tanks. I now check
the regulators in the morning an make sure the screws are backed out
before anyone gets to turn them on…

Tag on the returned regulator bag says:

This regulator has been rebuilt and/or tested to meet or exceed the
original manufacturer’s specifications.

To insure long life and proper operation of this equipment ALWAYS
BACK ADJUSTING SCREW OUT BEFORE OPENING CYLINDER VALVE.

Failure to back out the adjusting screw will damage the seat and may
cause the regulator to malfunction.

34 
If someone wants to respond, please address issue factually. Do not
quote manuals, recommendations, and etc.

I haven’t followed this much, I’ve just been watching the thread and
thinking, Geez how much can you say about an empty tank? Anyway,
facts. IF your oxygen regulator fails, or IF your tank fails, or IF
it should fall over, and IF it’s reasonably full, the tank can go
through you, your wall, the neighbor and his wall, and his
neighbor’s wall, trash the car in the driveway, and knock down the
tree next to it. That enough facts? DO quote manuals. DO follow
recommendations and DO etc. And that doesn’t even address walking
into a room full of pure oxygen from a leak and lighting a match.

35

Dear Mr. Surpin:

Thank you for your posting. My concerns regarding your suggested
method of operation were based upon safety alone. The concept of gas
being confined to the tank alone, when the torch system is not being
used and when no one is at hand. This is to say leaving no gas in the
torch, hoses, or regulators when not used. Stored in the tank alone,
at night, over the weekends, and vacations periods. And yes, a number
of people and I have stated safety guidelines directly from the
manufacturer, well established by organizations who’s members have
worked/work with bottled gases daily for generations to support our
view. As a torch manufacturer we would urge you to follow those
recommendations, long established by practice and experience. It has
been said here before (wish I could remember who): “In theory, there
is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.”
I would also refer you to the excellent replies you received from Mr.
Binnion and in today’s postings by Mr. Bowersox which stating:
"Person that rebuilt them told me the others were from adjusting
screw not being backed out when the tanks were turned on. Tag on the
returned regulator bag says: To insure long life and proper operation
of this equipment ALWAYS BACK ADJUSTING SCREW OUT BEFORE OPENING
CYLINDER VALVE.

Failure to back out the adjusting screw will damage the seat and may
cause the regulator to malfunction.

Regulators which are backed off, do not unseat unless they have aged
considerably. If safety was not enough, the increased possibility of
damaging the regulator itself, a not too uncommon occurrence as Mr.
Bowersox typical example provides, should be a good reason not to
accept your original posting or follow the procedures you claim to be
using daily for many years without difficulty.

For “intellectual pursuit” you may put your regulator wherever you
wish, in practice you need to back it off at the end of each days
work. And I think the responses you received by a number of people
wanted to make this clear not just to you, but to the others, some
who are just starting out and read this posting for guidance.

Best Regards,
Gary
Gary W. Miller, Sr. Technical Advisor
Spirig Advanced Technologies, Inc.
www.spirig.org

36

Mr Miller,

Failure to back out the adjusting screw will damage the seat and
may cause the regulator to malfunction.

I understand and appreciate your cautionary note. However, in which
circumstances would the seat be damaged?. And how would the regulator
malfunction?. Can you give any case studies where this has happened
before?.

I have only ever simply closed my oxygen bottles at night and in the
morning open them slowly.

I am very respectful of compressed gas.

So, what does actually happen when a regulator malfunctions through
incorrect opening and closing?

Thank you, Hans Meevis
http://www.meevis.com