Going nuts in this jewelry class

Back in the day, the stones were backed with old LP's (flat large
black discs, used for the same purpose as Cd's). Turquoise in
particular, but also other soft stones used to be backed with
Devcon, a brand name epoxy that was essentially plastic steel. 

Back in the day when and where ? If one lacking skills to set stones
in bezel, than get some remedial classes to rectify the deficiency.
Jewellery must not contain any other substances than precious metal
and There are no exceptions!

Leonid Surpin

Okay here's my question if i made the bezel tooo too high over the
stone what method is the most professional to raise the stone inside
the bezel after the back of the bezel is soldered????? 

Have I read this right? Bezel is too high for the stone, why not
file the bezel down to the right height?

Alternatively make square wire seat to raise the stone in the bezel.
Put the wire or wires depending on height you need to raise the stone
into the bezel. Why do you solder bezels to sheet? I do this for some
rings, but for pendants and most rings I use open back bezels with.
5mm square wire for the stone seat. Seems like you are wasting metal.

I have just finished a day in my work shop, my daughter and I were
setting cabs in bezels all day long. Rings and earrings.

If you told me to raise a stone with cardboard in a class I would
give you an undeleted expletive and and ask for my money back. This is
just ignorant rubbish.

Richard

Hi My teachers used all kinds of things. The most versatile is
polymer clay. It can be made any shape or thickness necessary. It
can even be color matched. Just shape it and bake it like you
normally would then pop it in under your stone. Sheri

Sabra,

There are many ways of dealing with bezel height, and in some
traditional American Indian jewelry, raising the level of the stone
within the bezel using cardboard or sawdust was very common and
accepted. You work with what you have. You must realize that every
situation is unique, and there are no hard-and-fast rules that apply
to all situations. Your assistant was probably trying to give you a
very simple solution that would move you towards a completed project
so you could move on to another, rather than re-working the first
piece again (and again, and again…)

Bezel setting is quite varied, from simple fine silver wire soldered
to a flat closed back, to heavy gauge bezels, open backed. Each needs
to be treated accordingly, and with respect to the kind of stone that
is being held, i.e., faceted or cabbed, thick or thin, diamond or
opal. Setting methods dealing with these different bezels will be
different as well, from bezel pushers, bezel rollers, burnishers or
hammer and punch setting. 20

While your enthusiasm and frustration are apparent, the key to a
successful outcome is patience and an open approach to working out
the problems. I’ve been in this business over 30 years at the bench,
and still get new ideas and tips from fellow jewelers. Not all
classes or approaches fit all students. I have taken advanced level
classes, and been very frustrated by the lack of skills and
knowledge that some participants have, which has taken the
instructor’s time, and I have not gotten the benefits I wanted
because of the class’s lack of progress. So, you take what you need
and move on.

Good luck,
Melissa Veres, engraver
http://www.melissaveres.com

In 1985 I was taught to use tiny cork pieces, or perhaps sawdust to
achieve this. Cardboard will degrade much quicker over time.This was
a last ditch effort and used for semi-precious gemstones only.

MkM
mmwaxmodels.com

I do not often make bezel settings these days, but when I do, the
bezel is trimmed to fit the stone so no packing materials are
required, or a “step” inner bezel is added to get the desired depth
correct.

On the other hand, when I am doing repairs I try to duplicate
whatever materials the original jeweler used. I will make sawdust to
back “traditional” native American jewelry, or add plastic inserts
if that is what was used before. I try not to use a paper product to
avoid the possibility of future deterioration. With any material I
use though, the stone must still beset tightly and correctly, to
avoid having it loosen when worn.

I am sure that for a new student, just learning to make jewelry, a
cardboard inset is going to do the trick pretty quickly and
sufficiently. You are not yet trying to master and perfect the
craft, but learn the entry level basics, that you can then adjust
and use to take your craft in whatever direction you wish. The
little tricks you learn at this level will be replaced by more and
more sophisticated and professional “tricks” as you become more
professional yourself. Enjoy, play and learn, and keep asking
questions.

Ultimately YOU are the judge of what is the best way for you to make
your own jewelry, and which techniques work best for you.

Sabra

You will run into lots of different ideas from probably everyone you
come in contact with while learning jewelry arts.

I’ve seen Native American jewelry set with sawdust backing the cabs
in the bezels. I’ve also know many who have used the wafer thin
cardboard. Yet another lady used thin plastic sheets originally
intended to cut out pattern pieces for quilting. You can also set a
very thin layer of epoxy (let it set up first). Each of those
methods will grate on the next person, as it is not what they would
do. If it is organic in nature, it might rot and then the stone will
wobble.

Me I will either cut down the bezel wire before hand to the size
needed, or I take a piece of sand paper placed on a flat surface and
then sand it down to the right height I want. That is usually just
to fine adjust the height.

Don’t just out of hand think the advise you get is wrong. Stop and
ask why it is done that way, and what other methods are there. This
is why we take classes, to learn. If in real doubt, go to the head
teacher, not the assistant and ask. You might find that it is wrong,
or you might find the teacher has the same idea. This board is a
wealth of knowledge and by know you will find we all have our own
individual ways of doing things. Yet the best resource you have, and
it is immediate is your teacher in that class. Ask questions, that is
what they are there for. There is no wrong or stupid question, Only
the question you have not asked. We of the board will always be
here, with out many and varied ways of doing jewelry.

Thank You everyone, i really liked a few of your suggestions, i am
making a ring Onyx right now, i will take some advice i made three
bezels, i also went on The GIA website they have some wonderful
bench tips videos’ the square wire at soldered at the base of the
bezel is a great idea, as well asa coiled silver wire. I think about
what would a person who i made this for think about me. the plastic
idea is nice too. I thought the assistant was pulling my leg i had no
idea how many people actually use cardboard and/ or sawdust.
Personally i wouldn’t go that way. THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR YOUR ADVICE
YOU ARE JEWELS YOURSELVES!!!

A friend of mine (who has been a silversmith for many years) told me
on the trick of using old CD’s under the stone. If the stone needs
light - the CD reflects it back through the stone! Haven’t tried it
yet, but I have some very thin cabs for which I will try this! CD’s
can be cut and shaped.

Gloria Lenon
Hemlock Hollow Creations

Another factor to consider is of course the stone. I recently bezel
set two lovely iolite cabs with one being taller than the other. In
this case, anything with a color other than silver shows through the
stone, so cardboard, sawdust, wire would all be visible. I used
clear plastic from a takeout container lid under the shorter one to
raise it up to the same height as the other. The silver color of the
bezel back shows through both cabs.

Sometimes I simply want a taller “look” to the bezel–a design
decision. If the stone itself is simply not tall enough in profile,
I will create a taller bezel and then add a bearing (a seat or lip
that the stone actually sits on) by adding an “internal bezel” that
telescopes inside the first or by using a bit of plastic like an old
credit card or hotel key card (I seem to have quite a collection of
those) or another scrap of metal.

Although it is common practice I prefer not to use cardboard or saw
dust (which can help level an oddly cut stone, true) since I feel
that they can soak up water and deteriorate or change.

Andy

as the jewelry is exposed to water, such organic materials
deteriorate and the stone loosens as it drops in the setting. 

Not necessarily. I am wearing a ring I made about twenty five years
ago, which I set with a turquoise backed with sawdust, and it’s still
as tight as the day I finished it. Same with another such ring I
bought over thirty years ago. The stone in that one finally broke and
I removed it. The sawdust inside was packed into an almost solid mass
and the stone had been tight before it broke. I regularly back cabs
in sawdust and have never had one returned with a loose stone.

Jerry in Kodiak

I can absolutely guarantee that at least 3 of them will over file,
orotherwise trash their bezels if I try to get them to file it
down tothe 'right' size. Just a random quote from Brian. And
Sabra's actual question has been answered. I'll just address some
of things people have brought up, though. Oh, if we only lived in
a perfect world...... 

In American gas stations there are signs: “Don’t use your cell phone
because it can cause an explosion”. Thing is, as has been well
documented ~no such thing has ever actually happened, in the world~
Somebody went looking for something new to be afraid of, basically.
If your stone is properly set - the bezel is firm against the stone -
water just isn’t going to get inside and if it does it will be a tiny
amount.

And even if it does, so what? The organic stuff inside will get wet
(tiny wet) and then it will get dry. Ho hum… This being born
out by the millions of pieces having been made that way without any
problems whatsoever. If it bothers you, fine, but there’s no
objective evidence of problems. And yes, using some sort of metal
spacer is “more proper” in some ways but for a $100 ring I just don’t
care. I use sawdust. Get an old broom handle or baseball bat or junk
furniture that’s hardwood, saw it with a hacksaw (small dust that
way) and sift it.

#2. The perfect world part. If you are cutting your bezels to a
height of each stone then you are, frankly, being anal. Your design
is being driven by a percieved “rule” that simply doesn’t exist but
in your own mind. Sometimes you want high bezels, sometimes you want
low bezels, sometimes you have six stones and they are all different
heights but you want them set the same. Many’s the time I’ve set
1.5mm thick more nci turquoise and no, I didn’t make goofy looking
1.5mm high bezels for it. You want the stone set ~just like that~.
Make a wire, use plastic, use cardboard, put it where you want it,
sell it and go home.

When I want to raise a stone, I use a ring of wire. This has the
extra virtue of working great to support a stone that is doomed on
the back, so it won’t rock. I would never use anything that could
rot, or absorb water. I do sometimes use Mylar from a candy wrapper
behind a stone if I want to prevent tarnish from darkening the stone.

But the main comment I want to make is this: sometimes a stone simply
looks better sitting up higher. Yes, I usually sand the bezel down if
it is higher than it needs to be. But I consider a perfectly valid
design decision to use a wider bezel and raise the stone if I feel
that will create the look I want. It isn’t laziness or incompetence,
it is a choice.

Noel

A friend of mine (who has been a silversmith for many years) told
me on the trick of using old CD's under the stone. 

Hmmm, I’ve read this on the list, but am wondering:-

If the aluminium inside the CD, that gets exposed when you cut the
brittle plastic to shape, would cause a galvanic reaction with the
alloy of the bezel?

Regards Charles A.

I would never use anything that could rot 

I use lignum vitae dust because it conforms so well with the shape
of the inside of the bezel, like regular sawdust but it doesn’t rot.

“…the famed lignum vitae tree, renowned among old time
shipbuilders. One of the hardest and heaviest woods in the world, it
can be heavier than water and consequently sink. It is highly rot
resistant (one website recounts lignum vitae posts in Indian
dwellings on St. Thomas being 800 years old)”

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep7zm6

Paf Dvorak

I was really AMAZED to learn how common it is to use cardboard,
sawdust, and plastic to raise a cab!!! I would never think of using
anything but metal.

I would, without a doubt, make a step from round wire. Very easy to
sand down if necessary to get the perfect height. If it’s a big cab,
I’d make the step from a strip (made into a ring). If you’re short on
money, you could make this addition out of copper or brass or nickel
silver. so long as you do NOT solder it in place. [If you solder it
to the piece, you can’t quality stamp.]

I would make the step clean and finished even though it will
probably never be seen. If for any reason the stone needs to be
removed (later by someone else), they should find inside a finished
metal ring with the same quality workmanship as the rest of the
piece. I’m not saying everyone needs to do this. I’m just saying
that’s what I would do on any piece going out to the world with my
name on it…:-)…Actually, I would probably do that on ANY piece
I made…:-)…

Janet in Jerusalem

Back in the day when and where ? If one lacking skills to set
stones in bezel, than get some remedial classes to rectify the
deficiency. Jewellery must not contain any other substances than
precious metal and There are no exceptions! 

Obviously that’s not what’s happening, and it appears that the
industry (those who have commented here in the affirmative), find it
to be an acceptable practice to use sawdust, cardboard, or plastic.

I can only conclude, from your lack of providing an alternative, or
telling someone to take further tuition, is that :-

a) you (Leonid) make a bezel to fit the stone,
b) you use precious metal to pack or lift a stone, or
c) you don’t make an oversize bezel for effect.

If this is not what you do, maybe you could offer your process?

I’ve already stated that I have only used sterling to pack or raise
a stone for practical reasons or for effect, but could see that it
may get costly to use say 22k to raise a stone in a 22k bezel. I
don’t know if this process is the best way to pack a bezel, and would
be interested in hearing the pros and cons of using precious metal to
pack a bezel.

Regards Charles A.

You call yourself jewellers and teachers?

I have emailed Sabra offline about this and am happy to give her my
limited advice after 30 years of setting cabs. I have set thousands
with out problems.

Why make solid backed settings? Good in some cases but an open
backed bezel, square wire for the seat saves metal and looks more
professional, IMHO. Sometimes solid backed bezels are used to fake
the quality of stones such as opals with potch on the back or
doublets or triplets pretending to be solids.

I knew a Japanese lady who sometimes used solid backed bezel
settings. I asked her why she was doing that. She showed me the back.
She had pierced an exquisite bird into the back of the setting for a
piece of turquoise. The stone made her think of the sky.
Traditionally she said the pierced back mirrored the 'feeling" of the
stone. Exquisite.

The replies to Sabra’s question has annoyed me more than anything I
have read on this post.

I have been on this webring on and off for years.

If the bezel can be filed down, start with a 0 file and be careful.

If bezel cannot be filed down, e.g. bail is too high. Simple make a
jumpring with square wire that fits into the edge of the bezel. File
down if needed or add another one. Till you get to the height you
need.

Brian if your post is for real. If you can not teach the students to
do it properly retire now and do the trade a favour. The students
haven’t failed you have as a teacher.

Diane yes the inner seat or sanding down is sound technique.

John and Jo-Ann just because SOME Native American Jewellery is no
more than tourist rubbish you make crap too. Lesser priced should not
mean low quality work.

Judy in Kansas silver filings may be? Coil of wire or sanding good
technique.

OK Karen how do you account for the plastic in your fineness mark,
just lazy. Plastic degrades. Filing to the right height is good
technique.

Leonid you are absolutely correct and I have told Sabra this exact
point.

A good start Lisa but then sawdust or cardboard.

I can't count how many American Indian turquoise jewelry repairs I
have opened up to find either cardboard or sawdust. 

Yep you had to repair low grade jewellery so you say copy this? No
way!

Vicki how professional? - totally not!! Don’t be lazy, do it
properly.

Paf wood dust? Please don’t teach anyone how to make this crap.

Pedro more work than a wire seat but very good technique and
quality.

This is NOT a criticism of Pedro. If the cab is slightly curved at
the bottom edge as some are, the square wire jumpring would give
extra stability for setting.

It's your work, your pride and your way to show people how you make
jewelry. 

Absolutely correct Pedro.

Yes how would the EX customer feel that a professional, LOL, used
cardboard?

Russ just because some people use low grade techniques, you think it
is right?

Sam you think this is good advice. I think it is an admission of
lack of skill.

Thomas you admit you can not make bezels the right height so you use
glue. No way. It would be quicker to use Pedro’s method and better
quality or square wire.

Willis I assume the washer is of the parent metal. Good technique,
no problem.

So we have two schools of thought here. Do it cheap and crap or do
it properly.

Make the effort to do it properly or it will come back to bite you.
Make crap and destroy you reputation.

Now I have annoyed a quite a few people, I wait for your
justifications that you are lazy and make rubbish.

Richard

Maybe you could explain your process? It would probably be more
helpful. CIA 

It is not my process. It is a process of anybody with even a modicum
of training. There are should never be a need to raise stone, to
lower stone. to move stone sideways, and etc. Any jewellery project
starts with design. Next step is to draw construction sketches, where
all dimensions are thought through. Nobody should even dream of
touching metal until everything is computed and rechecked at least
twice, to eliminate possibility of an error.

How under this scenario there could ever be a need to “raise the
stone” ? Take a look at my trailers. As short as they are, the
sequence of step is there. Start with design; proceed to construction
drawings; if there are special conditions - they are noted on
drawings; and only then the work with metal begins.

Leonid Surpin