Hi Brian!
When I said “Israel has always been totally metric”, I of course
meant modern Israel, not biblical Israel…:-)… The Ottoman
Empire (1299 - 1923), which included the lands of what later became
most of today’s Middle Eastern countries, was one of the 17
signatories of the Metre Convention in 1875.
Janet in Jerusalem
The reason I like the metric system is because I am dyslexic. Not a
lot, just enough to make it hard to do math. I have to do each
problem several times and hope I get at least 2 that match. It is
much easier to do simple math then complex conversions.
Gerald A. Livings
Livingston Jewelers
Like Andy, I use pennyweights (dwts). 20 is an easier number for me
to deal with than 31.1. The other major factor is that I seldom
purchase anything that isn’t sold and billed to me by the
pennyweight. Fine metals, alloys, mill products and most everything
else made of precious metal that has a weight-based cost are always
billed in pennyweights or decimal fractions of the troy ounce (which
is easily divisible by 20, 31.1 not so much) by all of the suppliers
I use. It’s pretty much the industry standard in the US.
The only real exceptions are finished pieces like chains, charms,
tennis bracelet mountings (yuk) and the like. I’ve always thought
they do that because it sounds cheaper to the uninitiated, e. g. $20
a gram as opposed to $30 a dwt (which is actually cheaper, see how it
works?). Gold-By-The-Gram is seen as a pawn shop scam or late-night
TV kind of thing by most in the trade, or at least it used to be.
If a customer asks about something related to the gram weight, I use
the simple formula of 2 dwts equals 3 grams (dwts divided by 2, X 3 =
grams) to come up with a rough answer. They want closer than that, I
hand them a calculator (dammit Jim, I’m an artist, not a
mathematician!). On appraisals, for the convenience of the reader, we
list both.
I use the metric system for virtually all other measuring tasks
except metal thickness, for which I prefer to use B&S gauge. Again,
mainly because that’s how it’s ordered and sold here. Most American
smiths find it easier to visualize a foot long piece of 16 gauge
round wire than 30cm of 1.25mm wire without using a calculator. It’s
what we’re used to, like miles per gallon versus kilometers per
liter. It’s easier for most US based suppliers to understand when
ordering too.
It’s probably more habit than anything else, what we learn at the
start is what we end up using daily. Like just about everything else
concerning what we do though, there’s no right or wrong way, just
what works best for the user. For me (and the vast majority of
Americans for the last 100 years apparently), it’s easier to use the
system that’s in place than it would be to try to change it. If you
gotta blame someone, blame the British. They’re the ones that forced
it on us in the first place.
Dave Phelps
Hi Janet,
I realized after I sent it that it might be unclear which I meant. I
was laughing about Europe having ‘always’ been metric, nevermind
Israel.
Regards,
Brian
Brian
You can laugh at Europe, we in Canada, are ALL metric. We use
grams with no labour in changing weights. after all we are now
neighbours to everyone,*eh!..:>).
Gerry Lewy*
Ops, 31.1 gms divided by 20 dwt = 1.555 grms…
Where is division symbol on IPhone?
20 dwt divided by 31.1 grms = 1.555 grms.
HI David,
Like Andy, I use pennyweights (dwts). 20 is an easier number for me to deal with than 31.1. The other major factor is that I seldom purchase anything that isn't sold and billed to me by the pennyweight. Fine metals, alloys, mill products and most everything else made of precious metal that has a weight-based cost are always billed in pennyweights or decimal fractions of the troy ounce (which is easily divisible by 20, 31.1 not so much) by all of the suppliers I use. It's pretty much the industry standard in the US.
Talk to your suppliers. I’m willing to bet they’d be just as happy
to sell (and bill) in grams, at least for casting grain. Mill
products probably not, but only because they’re in B&S sizes. If you
buy wire by weight, they’d probably do grams without batting an eye.
I’m trying to remember which system I normally order in. If I don’t
care about specific weight, I go by ozt, and just buy X number of
ounces of whatever.
If I care, I’m normally buying by length or size, which is normally
in B&S. God this is screwy, now that I actually stop to think about
it.
The last few times I ordered fine gold, that was in grams, from a US
supplier.
What’s puzzling me is why you say that 20 is easier to use than
31.1? (Yes, clearly, 20 is easier to do in your head than 31.1 but
the real question is why you’re worrying about 31.1 at all?) 31.1 is
just the conversion factor to to get back to ozt. If you just stay
in grams, you never need to fuss with it, unless you want to back
out to ozt at the very end.
The conversion between any two measurement systems is a copper
plated bitch, most of the time. That’s what killed metric in the US
back in the 70’s: all the emphasis on converting between the
systems, which was nobody’s idea of fun. Which made it seem like
metric was hard. If you just pick a system and stay with it, it’s
easy. So I agree with you that 20’s easier than 31.1, but I don’t
understand why you’re worrying about 31.1 until the very end, if at
all? If you measure all the components in grams, and stay there,
they just weigh what they weigh.
You’re right, it is mostly habit, but habits can be enlarged.
Regards,
Brian
... why you're worrying about 31.1 at all?
When retail customers want to understand the price of gold jewelry,
many of them start the conversation with a reference to the price of
gold in the newspaper.
Few jewelers understand and/or bother explaining the futures market
and how you have to take delivery of a specific quantity to get that
price, but regardless, at some point the jeweler will have to
mention Troy and the 31.1 gram ounce.
It’s difficult for many retail customers to wrap their mind around a
31.1 gm ounce, and when you start then selling your jewelry to them,
or buying their, many feel uncomfortable with this jewelers
witchcraft math. (I think a lot has to do with the younger
generations and how comfortable they are with weighing other things
in grams…)
I just feel it’s better to be up front about it all, and yes, I’m
older and learned from even older folks, and have always used Troy
in my dealings with gold and silver. (Though when I alloy I use
metric because the parts are smaller and I can be more accurate.)
As to converting: there are 1.555 gm in a dwt, and .643* dwt in a
gram.
*(643 is a prime number so you’ll never get exact, but close
edamnough.)
I don’t work retail any longer, so I use troy only for pricing.
Paf Dvorak
HI Paf,
... why you're worrying about 31.1 at all?
It's difficult for many retail customers to wrap their mind around a 31.1 gm ounce, and when you start then selling your jewelry to them, or buying their, many feel uncomfortable with this jewelers witchcraft math. (I think a lot has to do with the younger generations and how comfortable they are with weighing other things in grams...)
Yeah, I guess that’s one of the great advantages of mostly just
reason to come into a conversation thinking that I’m trying to put
anything over on them. Most of the folks I deal with are students
who came looking for me to explain things, so they’re inclined to
trust me to start with.
I’ve also been known to pull out catalogs and show them the
fabrication charge calculations for various mill products, when the
conversation turns to buying an ‘ounce’ at spot, versus getting gold
in your hand. I’ve done that with non-students and it’s worked well.
It’s never been an issue with them trying to dicker on price based
on the material costings.
Why should the fact that a troy ounce is 31.1 grams be any weirder
than the fact that an avoirdupois ounce is 28.35, or that an inch is
25.4mm? Just explain it as the fact that there are a bunch of
different 'ounces’out there, and that’s one of the big reasons why I
(you) like metric: there’s only one gram. (and they’re smaller and
you can be more accurate…)
For reasons that have to do with Knew Concepts, I was pondering
computer scales today, and it suddenly occurred to me that the
reason all your precious metals are billed out in decimal troy
ounces is that I’m about 99% sure that the cutting room scales are
running in grams, and the shipping/invoicing computer is just doing
a flying conversion on the gram input from the scale. “For customer
orders in OzT, do the conversion, if not, just show it in Gm.” I’d
be shocked if it’s working any other way.
Regards,
Brian.
It’s all the same to me if everything goes to metric.
Base 10 is easy for humans to grasp.
Let’s start with the London close.
Paf Dvorak
A “gram, is a gram” and it’s still a gram no matter how you slice
it…Stick with the metric system!!! it works great up here north of
the 49th parallel…litres, grams, kilometers, mm’s & cm’s…we’ve
been “living metric” for decades now.
BTW, we had 20 cm’s snow fall on us on Thursday. a.k. a. ‘8 inches’
& wind @ 30 km/hr (18 mph) & it’s a hot 0 Celcius today, (32F) get my
drift?..Gerry!
It's all the same to me if everything goes to metric.
Base 10 is easy for humans to grasp.
Let's start with the London close.
That’s just it, isn’t it? The only time conversion is a pain is when
pricing is involved, which for me is every single transaction. My
scale is just as accurate no matter which system I set it to
display, so it’s easier for me to stick with one system from start
to finish. When London changes, I’ll step right up.
Dave Phelps
I’m a fan of the metric system - or more precisely -
standardisation.
Consistency.
Decimal makes a certain amount of sense since it aligns with our
counting system.
Having said that, old imperial systems have their merits as well -
12 is a very powerful number basis to work on - it has the highest
density of factors. I. e. you can factorise it by every number up to
it’s root. It has 6 factors 1 2 3 4 6 12. This makes dividing thing
up really versatile.
60 (12 x 5) you get…
1 2 3 4 5 6 10 12 15 20 30 60
so on and so forth. 144, etc.
I also have been told (without confirmation) that the difference
between Sterling and Pounds is 10% tax. so depending on if you have
to pay tax or not, you get paid a different amount…
However, recently I tried to work out the approximate diameter of
different gauges of cotton… Oh boy. what a hodge podge.
On the other other hand… modern metric SI scientific measurements
has dozens of different measures for energy - eV, cm^-1, Hz,
nanometers, kWh, just off the top of my head…
When I first met Susan, she taught me how to shop at the flea
markets, etc. If you notice most people like pawn shops buy in dwt
and sell in gram weight. I guess it is to keep their actual
costs/profit secretive.