I just checked on Stuller. com
20 dwt (1 ounce) of 14kt yellow gold casting grain = $1100.00
20 dwts 14kt flat stock 4x1.5mm (1 ounce) = $1113.00
20 dwts 8 ga round 14kt yg wire (1 ounce) = $1102.00
I could be off 2-3 dollars. it cost $13 an ounce more to buy sizing
stock. or 65 cebts per dwt. Just not worth yur time. As one person
said, if you don’t have it, fine, make it. We kept in stock 6
different widths of sizing stock by the foot in 14kt yg and wg
Same stuff, 6" in 18kt,
same stuff 3" in plat
same stuff 12" in silver
Wow rer - thank you SO MUCH for taking the time to write your super
informative and instructive post. I’m calling it the “business in a
bottle”, and am printing it not to file but to post in my studio
for inspiration and goals during the slow season. This post not only
teaches a TON about thinking outside the box, but also illustrates
the reason I love Ganoksin so much - people taking the time out of
their own busy lives to pass on practical, useful lessons so the
wheel doesn’t have to get reinvented. Thanks again, and Happy
(lucrative, inspirational, stress-free) Holidays!
I just checked on Stuller. com
20 dwt (1 ounce) of 14kt yellow gold casting grain = $1100.00
20 dwts 14kt flat stock 4x1.5mm (1 ounce) = $1113.00
20 dwts 8 ga round 14kt yg wire (1 ounce) = $1102.00
Why would anyone buy metals from a dealer?
7 lb bottle of nitric acid=$25
1 gallon bottle of muriatic acid=$7
50 lb bag of urea=$50
50lb bag of sodium metabisufate=$50
Beakers=reusable
I'm sure it's the same in Israel as well as the USA. But the cost
to buy sheet and wire over casting grain is a few dollars per ounce
more. Its not twice as you mentioned. My father had a jewelry
manufacturing facility and taught me labor was too much to waste.
Unless you have nothing to do, rolling out wire and sheet is not
worth your time for the few dollars saved.
I have to agree with David Geller on this point. However, there are
a couple scenarios I can see someone taking the time to mill their
own stock. For the beginning jeweler / craftsperson, taking the time
to learn the art of alloying and mixing metal, preparing ingots and
melting gold, milling and drawing sheet, wire and sizing stock is an
invaluable lesson. also, the artist that makes the one of a kind
pieces and wants a truly hand wrought item.
Being in the ‘Islands’ in the early days we would make all of our
own stock. It was a great lesson and the experience has stayed
throughout my jewellery career. We would buy several ounces of pure
gold and sit down for the day to make a batch of sheet, wire and
stock in various sizes, as we were a large repair operation, but
this was quite time consuming. Today when we need a piece of 3x2mm
flat sizing stock in dead soft, pick up the phone and call Stuller,
takes about two minutes, and when it arrives it is a perfectly
milled and clean piece of metal ready for immediate use.
We still have the very large electric rolling mill with it’s
pristine clean rollers and those very special round single wire dies
looking very pretty in the workshop but never used anymore. No
matter how good we were at making stock it would never come out in
the condition that one can get from the large suppliers. And really,
when one considers the precious little time we have anymore during
the day and the real cost of our labor, buying already made sheet
and wire is a big savings.
I just checked on Stuller. com 20 dwt (1 ounce) of 14kt yellow gold
casting grain = $1100.00 20 dwts 14kt flat stock 4x1.5mm (1 ounce)
= $1113.00 20 dwts 8 ga round 14kt yg wire (1 ounce) = $1102.00
$1100 for 20 dwt is $55 for 1dwt That is $6 over gold content value.
So they over-charge for casting grain to make it look more palatable
for sheet and wire. It is an old trick.
I’m not trying to say anyone is wrong. Two people mentioned (my
words) why buy gold from “Over priced Stuller”
It was easy to login and get the price.
But I bought my gold from Hoover & Strong when I had a store.
The point is Stuller is 1.1% MORE to buy stock than grain. If you
went to South Africa, maybe its less than 1.1% but paying a jeweler
$40-$60,000 a year (as I did when I sold my store in 2000) trying to
save 1% when a jeweler is supposed to PRODUCE $125 an hour.
if a jeweler rolled out 3 ounces of gold that could save us $39. ($13
an ounce more for stock times 3 ounces)
In that hour the jeweler would have lost us $86 ($125 an hour minus
the roll out savings of $39)
if you have free time I do understand it. We had 4 or 5 jewelers, a
waxer, polisher and shop foreman. We were running 9000 jobs thru the
shop a year. Save $13 even $25 an ounce when we have a box or work to
do? We would make it if we ran out but I tried to keep in stock what
the jewelers needed. Besides we kept all sweeps and shop scrap and
sent it in for refining, did not take the money but exchanged it to
metal. I calculated the last year I had the shop we might have paid
Hoover & Strong $10k for metal doing 1.4 million in shop sales
because we constantly set them sweeps/scrapped shop pieces for stock.
Even if we spent more it would be worth it. Jewelers time is
important.
So where do you buy your gold at true spot price. Every bullion
dealer adds some profit or they would not be in business. What if all
the customers out there were as tight with their money and only
wanted to pay gold content price for our work.
I would be willing to bet that only 1% of the people on this list
could roll out a 6" x 6" piece of sterling sheet and have it as nice
as a milled product from a metal house. Now I need 10 of them
tommorrow and I have 30 other jobs to do today. I’ll pay the postage
and the extra cost to have it here by noon perfectly annealed and
flat.
So where do you buy your gold at true spot price. Every bullion
dealer adds some profit or they would not be in business.
Coin dealers have coins with zero numismatic value and will gladly
sell at spot. One can buy from people who buy gold from walk-ins.
They will gladly sell at spot too. Basically it is anyone who wants
to sell gold, but forced to go through refiner. For them selling at
spot is a great deal.
What if all the customers out there were as tight with their money
and only wanted to pay gold content price for our work.
Anybody tries to do the best deal one can. That is exactly what
market is - a price discovering mechanism. There are times when
jewellery is worth only it’s gold content, and there are other times
when it is gold content + hefty premium.
I personally use a great deal of chemicals and know how to store
them and in what to store them. But it seems to me that being a site
that many novices come to asking the most basic questions - like
where and how to buy metals- It follows that they should be told
one’s personal experiences with different dealers, vendors, and
sources as comparative To provide a list of some, what i
consider fairly dangerous chemicals - particularly if in the hands or
garages of the inexperienced - seems like a bad idea !
For instance in a non climate controlled studio or a garage, the
basic plastic bottle that Muriatic Acid comes in breaks down in about
6 months in the hot humid Southern US, despite the "protective"
plastic bag it is wrapped in and faster if it is in sunlight.
neither plastic bottle nor bag is appropriate for long term storage
and should the container leak and contact for instance the paper
canister of pool chlorine that may be right next to it on a shelf in
the garage, an explosion would result after, oh, less than two
minutes! And what about that 50 lb. bag of urea,? Is it right next to
an open bag of ammonium nitrate that the person may have used for
their gardening?W hat if it rains in a window and both bags get
soaked, or even whetted enough that the two chemicals mix. and maybe
they are right next to propane or acetylene tanks connected to the O2
tanks with a leaky or improperly installed “y” connection and the
leaky hose clamp on that tubing is near the admixturee? Matter of
fact, Providing a list as you did is clear to me what you are
implying can be done with the chemicals, but for many that come to
this site, It seems like an irresponsible act without instructions as
to what to do with them, or cautions specified as to how to store
them and what to do in case of an emergency, much less handling them.
What if a novice decided he was going to mix them in an aluminum pot
and toss in some gold plated costume jewelrye? For one thing the
reaction with the container would far “outperform” the amount of gold
possibly collected- as we are talking milligrams, even if the novice
thought a handful of plated jewelry was enough to warrant any
operation such as reclamation. . So I urge everyone -with some
experience- to think of the audience and the level of knowledge the
topic implies the original poster has if the buyer has no
alternatives, or equipment like a rolling mill, or any idea how to
make an improvised drawing tool, much less what a drawbench is and is
visiting a site like Stuller, as a few students have done recently,
and being instructed by the site*: *"in order to purchase these items
please contact a local jeweler " then buying from a vendor may be the
only option that novice has unless there is a local dealer in their
town or village that sells precious metals and mill products. There
have been many times I have organized group buys of metals for people
that have contacted me from Orchid, or students as they had no other
sources to buy precious metals at least, at spot much less at a
reasonable savings fin order to get quantity discounts, and they have
absolutely no net 30 accounts, and often don’t realise the catalogue
they have gotten hold of is a triple keystone counter guide intended
for retailing pre-fab components to the general public, and think
that is what a jeweler pays for say, a semi-mount - that is, if they
know what triple keystone means in the first place ! I have been
willing to help them buy the supplies and items they want and
occasionally suggest things they didn’t realise they would need, or
things that would simplify what they want to do with the metals, etc.
However, when a novice asks me to assist them in or add them to a
group buy and they want casting grain and let’s say, master alloy I
make it a point to ask them how and where they will use the items.
You would be surprised, if not shocked at some of the notions people
have about melting metals and in what and further, with what. so
Let’s be responsible on Orchid and offer usable complete and concise
when it is clearly needed. and stress safe practises. .
rer
No offense intended, but I don't see it as a "trick". They charge
for their labor and expertise, as they should. I simply choose not
to pay for it.
You missing a point. $6 over gold for sheet and wire - I would not
pay it, but there maybe a justification. $6 over gold for casting
grain is way to much. Long, long time ago when I experimented with
casting, I paid $2 - $2.5 over gold for ready casting and when sprues
were too big, I clipped them and send it back for refund.
We do shows and found that it’s a good selling tool when we tell
customers that we alloy and roll our own sterling silver so that
they are truly getting a one of a kind hand made piece.
Also, it’s a bit less of a hit on taxes on inventory when I roll my
own sheet instead of having various gauges in stock. I am 15 minutes
away from the precious metal dealer where I can buy fine silver by
the ounce. It’s apoor man’s version of just in time inventory.
As soon as I have time to build a drawing bench we will be drawing
most of our wire.
BTW I buy my alloy from United Metals so there’s no guess work.
I just checked on Stuller. com 20 dwt (1 ounce) of 14kt yellow gold
casting grain = $1100.00 20 dwts 14kt flat stock 4x1.5mm (1 ounce)
= $1113.00 20 dwts 8 ga round 14kt yg wire (1 ounce) = $1102.00
The point is to compare to pure metals, not casting grain.
:-)…!! I used to get pure gold here and there, e. g., from old
jewelers who were retiring. If you add the minimum labor charges,
plus cutting charges, plus shipping and insurance, I think it still
comes to about double.
I must emphasize I am probably talking about smaller amounts than
you, i. e., under an ounce! ‘Minimum’ charges add a lot.
Uh, casting grain that i get is pure 24 kt gold- that’s about all I
buy from vendors unless I need tubing and don’t feel like making it
or bi-metal sheet. why would anyone buy casting grain in 14 kt.
unless it’s an emergency- it’s a waste of money. if you can melt,
pour and fabricate that’s the most economical way to buy your gold -
then you can make any colour and material you need - provided you
have fine silver and copper on hand!..Maybe you were thinking of
master alloy which one adds to casting grain to karat gold or to
make it roll out easier adding traces of metals you may not have on
hand. rer
All you folks that advocate making your own mill products must not
value your own time at all. Unless you pay yourself minimum wage or
less you cannot possibly make sheet or wire for less than what the
mills sell it for. Sure in an emergency I will cast an ingot and
roll or draw sheet or wire but otherwise my time is better spent
making product to go out the door.
Regarding Stuller and Rio Grande, I find that Rio has really high
charges on silver tubing, gallery wire and other fancy silver mill
products. Stuller is so much cheaper for silver tubling, and a lot
faster. Of all of the suppliers I use, Stuller tends to have the
nicest, and widest range of settings, and more of them are available
in sterling, which is a bonus, esp. when I need the trillon bezel
settings. Yes, they do cost more for many things, but I found their
s/s tubing prices to be reallygood. Rio takes up to 2 weeks to
deilver unless I want to pay $25 or more for 2 day delivery while
Stuller has it at my door often next day and it’s not overnight mail.
For tools, Contenti cannot be beat, and their base metals prices are
good. As for wire, I tend to make 80% of my own wire from clean
silver scrap, and my custom bezel strip, but I refused to try to make
sheet metal (ever try rolling 1/8" slab through a big, cumbersome
rolling mill with a handle that goes backwards?). I’ll buy the 6g to
10g, wire and then make my 12g to 20g. If anyone has better
suppliers, let me know. I’m always looking for more stone dealers.
Now I just have to find a replacement 7mm reddish faceted round
andesine for a ring repair. Hope I can find one. Joy
All you folks that advocate making your own mill products must not
value your own time at all. Unless you pay yourself minimum wage
or less you cannot possibly make sheet or wire for less than what
the mills sell it for. Sure in an emergency I will cast an ingot
and roll or draw sheet or wire but otherwise my time is better
spent making product to go out the door.
I agree with you that buying standard alloys is better than rolling
them. Buying chennier, and tubing is the same. The place where I buy
my metal has a very comprehensive range of products, so I have a lot
of options with standard alloys. They’re experimenting with bi-metals
at the moment, very interesting it is too.
However they don’t always have the alloys I want, so for in-house
alloys I have no alternative but to roll my own.
To provide a list of some, what i consider fairly dangerous
chemicals - particularly if in the hands or garages of the
inexperienced - seems like a bad idea !
Be sure, every time you so much as mention compressed oxygen, to
explain what happens if it comes in contact with oil.
Unless Stuller has changed their policies in the last few years, no
“novices” are dealing with them. Unlike Rio who will quote wholesale
prices over the phone to anyone with a credit card number, Stuller
requires references from actual jewelers proving you are in the
trade.
This is a trade list. It should be assumed by the novice that we
will be discussing our trade. Jewelry making involves more than
stringing beads and if someone has discovered this site chances are
they’ve decided to go beyond the hobbyist stage of beading and
wrapping and have decided to delve into real jewelry making. I
suppose we should now be required to begin each post with a
disclaimer, or maybe Ganoksin should post one.
To all the novices and newbees who read this list: Don’t store
chemicals incorrectly, don’t eat them or splash them in your eyes or
mix them in unfamiliar ways. If you see a list of chemicals ASK what
they are used for and how. Get a computer and learn how to use
Google. Ask Google or the poster how to safely handle chemicals and
don’t just take people’s word for it, study on your own. Don’t run
with scissors; Don’t poke your eyes out; Handle with care; Don’t
fold, spindle or mutilate; Don’t track mud over my nice clean floor
and you just WAIT 'til your father gets home!
Joy, they have some nice looking stones at Gem Select. And delivery
is quick to here. Barbara on a slushy winter day on the island - at
least it’s not ice.