Forging 22 karat gold

There's no logic in the argument that you must smash before you
smash. 

I used to think the same thing. Made sense. Until I started thinking
about the action of the rolls. A hammer has more direct penetrative
force, it seems. The rolls move the top and bottom surface of the
sheet ahead of the middle. The crystals are stretched it also seems,
rather than broken up and refined.

But I’m not a metallurgist and, as I’ve said, The difference in
forged ingots and non-forged seems small to me…

Andy Cooperman, Metalsmith

The refining companies who produce wire and sheet stock commercially
DO NOT forge their ingots before rolling or drawing, at least that
is my understanding from speaking to the head metallurgist at United
Precious Metals. Whether their production techniques differ that
dramatically from torch melted/annealed stock made in the small
studio, I do not know.

We don’t forge our ingots before rolling or drawing, and we have very
little problem with the stock production or finishing of precious
metals made here in the studio.

Jay

Thank you for responding to my question. I would like to read the
archived comments on this subject. Attempting to find the past
debate was unsuccessful. Can you recall the year? 

Sept. 2013 the subject was “18K yellow gold cracking” (I think).

Paf Dvorak

Trying to stay on topic. at least this is related to ingots,
forging, etc.... How do you keep the oxygen off of sterling silver
to prevent those pesky bubbles and fire scale? 

I never see those things unless I anneal too hot.

FWIW, I dip my ingot in a supersaturated solution of boric acid and
denatured alcohol before every annealing, and pickle it after.

I don’t quench my sterling and my sheet looks like it was made by a
pro…

Paf Dvorak

There's no logic in the argument that you must smash before you
smash. 

There is not only logic but science behind the argument, and yes we
have been down this road before. As cast grain structure is large,
segregated and often contains shrinkage cavities and gas bubbles. If
cast in a metal or graphite ingot mold the grains are extremely
columnar in shape.

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep81oo

Those columnar grains make up the whole ingot in the small ingots
that we cast, unless you are casting a few hundred oz of gold or
silver then it looks more like the above illustration. Those long
grains allow stress cracking from the edges to occur and propagate
long distances increasing the likelihood of cracks coming from the
edges of the ingot. These cracks do not necessarily show as defects
large enough to result in complete failure of the ingot but may show
up in later processing.

If you want to learn about it you might start here.

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep81op

Then follow it up with this one
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep81oq

This article may provide some basic concepts that make the previous
papers a bit more understandable.

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep81or

James Binnion

There's no logic in the argument that you must smash before you
smash. 

There may be, however, even if not obvious. A rolling mill exerts
even pressure across the whole width of the ingot. In so doing, the
pressure is also linear along one axis, and, because it’s spread over
a fair width, the pressure at any given point may not be quite as
much as the impact force of a hammer. That will result in the
deformation being more at the surface, not penetrating as far into
the sheet. When rolling sheet, it is common to find the ingot
curling a bit with the process, sometimes getting decidedly wavy.
Part of the cause of this, in addition to slight inaccuracies in the
rolls, is that the deformation is more at the surface, stretching it
more than the interior, which you can easily see at the ends, which
develop a hollow depression as the surface stretches more than the
core. As you roll, that greater deformation of the surface, hardens
it more than the core, so then subsequent passes transfer more energy
to the center, and eventually the stresses at the core from
deformation equalize with those at the surface, even if that hollow
depression didn’t go away. The clue to this is that often, that
waviness in the rolled sheet evens out again, becoming if not flat,
at least a lot closer to it than it had been. That, by the way, is a
good time to anneal. But in any case, the observation is that when
rolling, stresses are directional, and more at the surface.

A hammer blow, on the other hand, transmits force into the metal at
one spot, radiating more evenly in all directions. Or at least more
so than is the case with rolls, even if a cross peen hammer is used.
More, the higher impact force of a heavy forging penetrates deeper,
more to the center of the ingot, so unevenness in internal stresses
for forging can be less than with a roll. That results in a more
uniform working of the ingot in the initial stages, which can lessen
the chances of cracking. This is aided as well by the fact that when
forging, one does not need to forge quite out to the edge, which can
be weakest and most easily cracked. The metal at the edge will still
stretch, pulled by the rest of the ingot, but more gently and slowly.
Once the ingot has been worked enough to harden it up a bit and
deform the crystal structure, then annealing allows the metal to
recrystalize into a structure with more even smaller crystals, which
is stronger and then is less prone to crack when rolled. The overall
structure ends up with less of a “laminated” sort of structure, even
after rolling and annealing.

But back to the original thread, of forging 22K gold. I can imagine
if the alloying metal is only copper, that a 22K gold might be hard
enough to require this. But frankly, I doubt it. 22K is so soft and
malleable that it’s pretty forgiving. Not like 24K, but not that far
behind either. I seriously doubt that going straight to a rolling
mill with 22K will give you significant problems over forging it
first. If it did, I’d suspect contamination of the metal during
melting with some other metal not normally alloyed with gold that
can make it more brittle than usual. Iron, Tin, Lead. Or?

Peter

News to me. When you anneal has more to do with how much you've
compressed the metal, rather than which orientation it was in.
Roll down about 50%, then anneal. 

The grains in the metal take on a directional distortion as they are
rolled. Cross rolling without annealing is a good way to crack your
metal even reversing the orientation front to back puts a greater
strain on the piece and may lead to fracturing.

James Binnion

I recently purchased a 500 gram Peddinghaus hammer with a polished
face that works very well for this purpose. It is the first hammer
that I have purchased in forty years. Rob

Rob Meixner

There’s no logic in the argument that you must smash before you
smash.

There is not only logic but science behind the argument, and yes
we have been down this road before. 

Yes, and as I (and others) have said before, all this microscopic
science is likely correct (I’m certainly not qualified to say one
way or the other) but I can only go with my experience, and for the
past 35 years I’ve never smashed before milling and never had issues
with cracking or bubbling or splitting.

Maybe I’ve just been lucky.

Paf Dvorak

Whether their production techniques differ that dramatically from
torch melted/annealed stock made in the small studio, I do not
know. 

Yes they do differ dramatically, in silver and gold production they
are all using continuous casting machines. As the metal exits the
die it is typically fed through a rolling mill and hot rolled. It
also has a different grain structure than ingot poured material.

If you get metal from them that is hand poured it has the same kind
of defects that you get in the studio.

James Binnion

Thanks for posting this, Robert.

http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/metal-rolling-n-drawing.htm 

I found the “Troubleshooting problems in rolling” chart interesting.

Paf Dvorak

that’s a really interesting discussion…
( Metal Rolling and Drawing - Ganoksin Jewelry Making Community )

If I read that right, with enough force, the deformation of the
forging or rolling occurs through the core of the ingot (the “X” in
figures 4.44 and 4.45). But if the force is insufficient, the
deformation does not penetrate to the core of the ingot.

Either way, existing flaws (large grain boundaries, core
segregation, etc) may well be made worse.

Of course, the thicker the ingot the more force is required to
ensure full deformation.

This suggests that forging does 2 things…

  1. deforms the ingot sufficiently in a single pass to deform it
    through the structure. This will reduce the gain size but it probably
    won’t improve any flaws due to impurities or

  2. makes it thin enough to ensure full cross section deformation

Has anyone experimented with forging or rolling hot? above 350 oC or
so, silver and gold (atleast pure) should be above their dynamic
recrystallisation temperature…

Forgot to add - eliminating casting defects is most important…

quick follow up…

I’ve seen castings when I studied this years ago where the base was
highly conductive and the walls insulated. In this case, grain
orientation is predominantly along the line of the ingot and there is
little or no melt-front centre line…

Has anyone experimented with forging or rolling hot? above 350 oC
or so, silver and gold (atleast pure) should be above their dynamic
recrystallisation temperature.... 

Yes I hot forge all my mokume and occasionally my ingots. Silver,
gold, platinum and base metals and yes dynamic recrystallization
occurs. The hotter the metal the more dynamic recrystallization
occurs.

James Binnion

A dilemma. I am about to mix up another batch of 22 karat gold 

I would like to offer my heartfelt appreciation for all the
and leads I received. I am grateful for this forum.

It has taken me a while to explore all the leads and to read through
the September 2013 archived posts and links. Thank you for directing
me to the very informative Santa Fe Symposium on metallurgy.
Fascsinating.

I never noticed any problem with cracking and splitting without
forging but am now curious to see if working with forged 22 karat
gold is any different.

With kind regards,
Lois