Firescale with Argentium Sterling

Don’t use the Prips flux with Argentium. You don’t need it. I
suspect that will solve your problem.

Debby

I use Prips Flux, mainly because I have a large supply of it - and
I don't understand why that would be the source of the problem?? 

As I think has been stated here before, Argentium Silver (AS) does
not necessarily react to a given flux the same way that regular
sterling would. I know, I’ve done a lot of tests on fluxes and even
small variations in formulas can have a significant affect on
results. I for one loved Pripp’s on regular sterling and quickly
dumped it when I discovered something better. And then I dumped that
one when I switched to AS because, again, it simply wasn’t doing the
job well. This situation is not that unusual: different fluxes for
different alloys is as old a rule as there is in this business.

But the solution is simple: find a flux that works with AS and run
with it. There’s lots more on this subject in the archives.

Cheers,
Trevor F.
in The City of Light
Visit TouchMetal.com at http://www.touchmetal.com

Nancy,

The two items that had granulation both turned dark smoky gray
around and between the granules. 

From the sounds of it the staining is localized to the zone around
the granules and that points to either the granules themselves or
whatever binder you might be using with them.

If I were a betting man, which I’m not, I’d say that whatever
flux/binder/you-name-it you are using with the granules is suspect
here.

Cheers,
Trevor F.
in The City of Light
Visit TouchMetal.com at http://www.touchmetal.com

Grace,

I am also curious - just how easily does Argentium get
contaminated I use dedicated firebrick and buffs, but I certainly
haven't replaced all my tools. 

As far as I know the drill is buffs/firebrick/pickle and that’s it.
I haven’t even considered going further than that because there
appears to be no need to.

(If I’m not mistaken we’ve covered this here before.)

Cheers,
Trevor F.
in The City of Light
Visit TouchMetal.com at http://www.touchmetal.com

Nancy,

Um… i havn’t worked with AS before but, could it be the Solder you
are useing that is causing the discoloration? Especialy since it is
around the granuels?

Ray Tomlin
Columbus Ohio

Has anyone tried using blue gas flux or Cuprinol with argentium? I
have been using blue gas flux (liquid and blue in color) for many
years while hand raising silver.

Jennifer Friedman
www.jenniferfriedmanstudio.com

Hello,

I conducted a little experiment yesterday with my Argentium. I
constructed 2 identical pieces - a small backplate and bezel. I
soldered one using My T Flux and one using Prips Flux. I used Easy
Sterling Solder, (because I am still not happy with the argentium
solders) and I soldered on a brand new firebrick. The piece soldered
with My T Flux turned a horrible yellow brown color while heating,
some of which pickled off but underneath that discoloration was
indeed firescale which I had to buff off – and I am referring to the
back of the backplate where it came into no contact with the sterling
Solder. The pieces I fluxed with Prips were slightly discolored but
cleaned up very nicely in the pickle. The pickle I use is PH down and
it was clean. Both pieces were cut from the same piece of stock -
however, I don’t know which company my stock came from. I’m puzzled
and I too wish to get to the bottom of the problem because Argentium
is quite a bit more expensive than Sterling and I would like the
benefits of no firescale in exchange for paying extra. Frustrated and
confused… …

Grace

I am working on two pieces that will be about 1 1/2" x 4" when
finished. One fold formed, one anticlastic raised. The chains most
likely will be fused. (It’s fun!) All Argentium. I have already fused
the 18k granules onto one piece, both have some soldering done with
more to come. One will have a basket built up for a large pear cut
stone (12 x 20mm). I am working on a compressed charcoal block and a
plain old hard firebrick, no firecoat, just flux at the joints and
spit on the granules. The torch is a Hoke, Oxy-Propane, soft flame.

Cynthia, the comment about the reducing atmosphere sure makes a lot
of sense. That was my thinking also. I think I have just been lucky
and not had much firescale if any. Might need new glasses.

You really have my attention about the paste flux and firescale. I
have never made the connection between the flux pattern and the
firescale pattern! That needs to be checked out. Thanks.

The Argentium I am using comes from Stuller.

Bill Churlik
www.earthspeakarts.com

When I first tried granulating/fusing on Argentium, I used a flux,
hide glue, water mix to attach the granule as I was following Ronda
Coryell’s CD. I saw the darkening around the granules when I used
both Argentium and 18K granules. It was not cleaning off easily. This
led me to try the spit/saliva trick. Haven’t had a problem since. I
will use flux to glue the granule in place if is on a near vertical
or steeply sloped surface and live with the cleanup.

I agree with Trevor about the binder. I suspect it is leftover
carbon. We may not be getting things hot enough to burn it all off.

For what it is worth, when I get a discoloration on the Argentium, I
just reheat it till it goes away…most of the time.

Bill Churlik
www.earthspeakarts.com

Thinking about the firescale problem and the source of the
Argentium.

There are several suppliers. But am I correct in that there is only
one manufacturer/producer of Argentium in the US…Stern & Leach? I
had always understood that they were the only ones licensed to make
it here. Everyone buys from them and distributes through their own
systems.

I do like to know who’s pot my metal came from.

Bill Churlik
www.earthspeakarts.com

Hi Nancy,

This evening I put several test pieces in the kiln to heat harden.
On one granulated earring I put flux on one half to see if it
would help. It didn't. So, you are correct, it is a waste of time.
The two items that had granulation both turned dark smoky gray
around and between the granules. Other items, including some scraps
of AS silver and some fused with larger decorations did not
discolor at all. So, I don't know why this happens. I wouldn't call
it firescale but it is an exasperating gray stain. 

It is quite common to have surface discoloration from hardening.
Normally, it comes right off in pickle. Are you saying that the gray
stain persisted after pickling? If so, it is certainly interesting.
Are those granules from Stern-Leach, or ones that you made yourself?
If you made them yourself, are they made on charcoal? If so, it would
be interesting to compare with granules made not on charcoal.

Cynthia Eid

When I first tried granulating/fusing on Argentium, I used a flux,
hide glue, water mix to attach the granule as I was following
Ronda Coryell's CD. I saw the darkening around the granules when I
used both Argentium and 18K granules. It was not cleaning off
easily. This led me to try the spit/saliva trick. Haven't had a
problem since. I will use flux to glue the granule in place if is
on a near vertical or steeply sloped surface and live with the
cleanup. 

Yes, I think that part of why I have not had a problem, is that I
never got excited about granulation before working with Argentium
Silver. So, the people who use hide glue are having trouble. I
agree----try using just flux, and skip the hide glue. A friend
suggested to me that perhaps as the glue burns, the carbon created
interferes with the germanium? This seems like a possibility to me.

Cynthia Eid

We are concerned and very curious as to why this is happening, and
I was wondering if Cynthia Eid had comments on two issues regarding
working with Argentium: 
1. The issue of what flux works best 2. The issue of firescale 
I must say that Cynthia Eid is one who knows her material and her
word is quite reliable.

Bless you, John, for your kind words! Thank you!

Though I have had success with all fluxes that I have used, I prefer
My-T-Flux for use with Argentium Silver when soldering and fusing.
Battern’s and Prip’s work fine, too. For some reason, the My-T-Flux
seems to stay just a bit cleaner. My understanding is that these
fluxes are pretty much the same, but I simply like the My-T-Flux best
with AS. I use paste flux as a temperature indicator for annealing. I
heat until the paste is clear and fluid, but still bubbly. I do not
like to use it for soldering or fusing, because I have experienced
firescale under the flux with traditional sterling, so I avoid using
it at soldering and fusing temperatures.

From what I am reading, I think it is best to avoid use of charcoal
with Argentium Silver. It seems that the reducing atmosphere prevents
the germanium from grabbing the oxygen from the copper, thus
preventing firescale.

Cynthia Eid

OK All,

I took the Fabrication, Fusing & Granulation class with Ronda
Coryell at Rio’s Catalog in Motion this year in Tucson. I loved the
class, and have carefully watched all AS related posts since.

I suspect Ronda is busy at this time, as she has not yet entered
this round of AS commentary. I have worn the AS Ring with Granulation
I made at that class every day since. We did during the class use
Charcoal Blocks, and Hide Glue, as well as Rio’s My T Flux. The only
difference so far, is that the surface LOS darkening has rubbed off
of the ring surface, but remains around the granulation.

After reading about Charcoal Blocks, I was asked to do a fusing
demonstration during a class I take at UCSD’s Crafts Center. There I
used a fresh Solderite board, and Oxygen/Natural Gas, rather than
the Propane used during Ronda’s class, and Cupronil instead of the
Past Flux we have at Studio. Added AS parts fused onto the back AS
plate, but I managed to melt a bit, as it was not dark, and the white
Solderite Board may have made it a bit more difficult to see the
moment of fusing.

The piece is still usable, and I will add to it. I do think that
more use, and individual commentaries, are valuable to all of us. I
will be very interested in seeing what AS 970 changes will bring and
look forward to its arrival in sheet form.

I am very happy to see AS Gallery Wire in Rio’s Catalog. My thanks
to Rio for supporting all of us.

I did not experience any Fire Scale at all, in the piece I
demonstrated on.

Thanks to all who are contributing to this thread. How about a Lark
Book on Argentium?

Terrie

The piece soldered with My T Flux turned a horrible yellow brown
color while heating, some of which pickled off but underneath that
discoloration was indeed firescale which I had to buff off -- and I
am referring to the back of the backplate where it came into no
contact with the sterling Solder. 

I think “back of the backplate” is a key piece of here.
My guess is that that “back” was against the firebrick, no? If so
then it didn’t get much exposure to the atmosphere during heating,
was therefore a bit oxygen starved, and thus didn’t form the
germanium oxide on the surface that gives you the tarnish and
oxidization protection.

I’ve seen this happen quite often during annealing: the metal likes
to be bathed in flame else it can happen that the portions that don’t
get flame come out dark, or darker, for the reason stated above.

The solution when annealing is to roll the piece over and get some
flame on the rest of it. I suggest you try the same: take the piece
that shows darkening on the “back” and heat that surface again, not
so much as to endanger your solder but enough to see that its
reacting to the atmosphere.

Chances are that a little of this and the oxide will… well,
disappear, now that it’s getting some air and is allowing the
germanium and oxygen to do their thing in a nice bath of heat. This
is basically just Cynthia’s “heat it 'til it’s good” rule re-phrased.

Also note that there’s nothing in the oxide you’re seeing that
negates the tarnish resistance properties of Argentium Sterling.
Nobody said that AS doesn’t get oxide when heated, look at my blog
for pictures of exactly that. What many of us have said many times
is that (a) it goes away when you heat it properly and (b) the AS
ends up being tarnish resistant… if you heat it properly.

You’re not being cheated in the price you’ve paid for your AS Grace,
you just haven’t yet found the sweet spot between your processes and
what you want out of the metal. That takes a little trial and error
sometimes but as many of us here can and have attested, when you get
there you will see the benefits.

Cheers,
Trevor F.
in The City of Light
Visit TouchMetal.com at http://www.touchmetal.com

I have, I think, learned what went wrong for me with the argentium
that had firescale.

I had soldered these pieces on a charcoal block- not because I
really felt I needed the qualities of the charcoal, but because I was
holding the pieces together with pins and charcoal is easy to pin
into.

Peter Johns, the inventor of argentium, thought that the charcoal
might be the problem- as it burns, it could absorb the oxygen that
would otherwise combine with the germanium to make the usual
argentium protective coating, leaving the sterling vulnerable to
having a bit of oxygen combining with the copper (I assume) and
creating firescale.

So I tested this: I took 2 scraps from the piece I’d used
previously, and annealed on on a clean solderite pad, and the other
on the same charcoal block I’d used. The one annealed on solderite
looked great; the one on the charcoal block did show some signs of
firescale. This convinces me that the charcoal had a lot to do with
the problems I encountered.

I know a couple of you have run into other problems with firescale
on argentium and I’d love to know what’s happened in your situations!
Else, I’m fairly confident I will at some point replicate your
experiences myself!

My thanks to both Peter Johns and Cynthia Eid for their help in
figuring out what went wrong for me.

Hope this helps,
Amanda

Trevor,

First, thank you for your detailed response. You just might have
something there - it does seems like the firescale I am getting with
Argentium is most often on the back of the piece. If the back of the
plate is being oxygen “starved” would I be better off to not put any
flux at all on the back? (I’ll take another look at your blog) Also,
this does not happen all the time and it didn’t happen with the other
piece on which I used the Prips flux??. I will experiment again and
then try to reheat and see what happens. Yes, I have been happy with
the slower tarnishing properties and on that note I have another
question, not knowing whether or not you or anyone else experimented
with this – under similar circumstances how do Argentium and Fine
Silver compare as far as rate of tarnishing is concerned?

Grace

Hi Amanda.

I know a couple of you have run into other problems with firescale
on argentium and I'd love to know what's happened in your
situations! Else, I'm fairly confident I will at some point
replicate your experiences myself! 

My experience with firescale on Argentium was surely associated with
the (Handy) paste flux I used. I applied it sparingly to just the
base of the bezel so as to facilitate the solder flow, leaving the
remainer of the metal bare to permit oxygen enrichment of the
germanium. I adjusted the bezel position a bit just before soldering
which smeared a tiny bit of flux onto the face of the piece. That was
enough apparently, as there was a definite firestain in the Argentium
sterling around the bezel base, even preserving the “bubble” pattern
of the boiling flux. I’m sure that I was overheating my work then, as
well, because of inexperience with my new oxy/propane torch and using
a too-small tip.

My-T-Fine flux works very well and I’ve been using it almost
exclusively since I bought it.

In the beginning I had somewhat mixed results with Cupronil but that
was when I still had a lot of variables I was trying to sort out. I
suspect that if I were to try the Cupronil now that I would find it
quite satisfactory as well. I’ll report back.

Hope this helps.

Pam Chott
www.songofthephoenix.com

If the back of the plate is being oxygen "starved" would I be
better off to not put any flux at all on the back? 

Grace, glad to hear we’re getting somewhere with this.

Umm, “flux on the back”? Why would you do that? And why use Pripps
at all for that matter? Pripps is primarily a firescale preventative,
meaning it tries to keep oxygen off the metal while heating in order
to inhibit the formation of oxides. But with Argentium Silver (AS)
you WANT the oxides to form because (a) the germanium oxide will form
first and thereby protect the metal from further oxidization during
the heating process and (b) those germanium oxides will build up your
tarnish resistance. I say put the Pripps back on the shelf and don’t
use it with AS, ever! Pripps is for regular sterling and AS is
certainly not regular sterling.

As far as soldering flux goes there are far better soldering fluxes
than Pripps – My-T-Flux has been mentioned, I use Thessco F – and
even then I generally try and use as little as possible for the
soldering part of the job. Forget “protecting” the AS with flux
because that’s just plain wrong: AS does not need “protection” during
heating. Quite the reverse: it wants all the oxygen it can get, the
more the merrier.

Look at it this way: one of the best things you could do for a piece
of AS is to heat it and reheat it all day long with as much exposure
to the oxygen as you can give it. Of course this is a waste of good
gas fuels because after the umpteenth reheating your observable
benefit is negligible but that’s not the point. The point is that AS
loves to bathe in the air while it is being heated so try not to do
anything that would interfere with that happy situation.

In my own work I try to work with AS on as open a surface if
possible. If the piece in question can handle it I raise it off the
soldering surface with risers in order to maximize the airflow around
the bare metal of the object during torch heating. In terms of
exposure to the atmosphere it’s the exact reverse of what you’d be
doing if you were using regular sterling. Again, AS is not regular
sterling so regular sterling practices and procedures often don’t
apply.

Toss the Pripps, minimize your flux, maximize your air exposure and
bathe the AS in heat: that’s the recipe for happy, tarnish resistant
AS.

I have another question, not knowing whether or not you or anyone
else experimented with this -- under similar circumstances how do
Argentium and Fine Silver compare as far as rate of tarnishing is
concerned? 

First let me say that I know of no such formal study.

Second… it’s very difficult to say with any certainty because it
depends so much on circumstances. In general, assuming for the sake
of discussion that we put regular sterling silver’s tarnish
resistance at 0 or 1 and fine silver’s tarnish resistance at about an
8 or 9, I’d say properly treated AS would be about a 7 or 8, give or
take, your mileage may vary, etc etc. Under certain circumstances
I’ve seen fine silver tarnish FASTER than AS, for whatever that’s
worth.

Cheers,
Trevor F.
in The City of Light
Visit TouchMetal.com at http://www.touchmetal.com

A quick not on fire scale and STERLING silver. I thought I was just
getting strange results. I generally soldered on a magnesia
firebrick, cheap, soft enough to use pins to hold items to be
soldered, lightweight but still substantial enough to resist
movement. Well the brick was getting kind of messy I was too lazy to
clean it and I had heard all the glories of of a good charcoal
block, so I started using one. Darnedest thing, I started getting
copper flash on the backs of many pieces - before pickling. Not fire
scale but pink copper flash. This is very easy to get off by adding
a bit of hydrogen peroxide to the pickle (thanks Bill from Reactive
Metals). I switched to a white soft solder board - no copper flash.
I think the explanation of the reducing atmosphere is right on the
mark.

Marlin on a spring like day in beautiful Denver