Once worn as jewellery the numastic value is gone.
That would only be true if numismatic value is derived from coin
condition. Not every coin is valued that way.
Leonid Surpin
She has no idea what she’s about to have you do! Maybe you could
convince her to have you put them on a gold chain to wear as a
necklace instead, the weight would feel less burdensome distributed
across her chest maybe? A charm necklace vs. a charm bracelet? And
then you could leave them in the bezels and sell her a nice gold
chain to boot? Good luck…
I have to agree with John Donivan on the issue of solder- choose
carefully - or drill, yes a departure from my earlier post but it’s
what the client wants then they too have considered their request…
and it is far easier in terms of customisation and security, and will
lighten the whole( damaging the coins more must be realised by the
client or she wouldn’t request it be done)!
But I can’t agree that just in wearing coins they are devalued- it
is true that they have been worn, but in bezels…so the value beyond
the spot price or what can be gotten from selling the metals is
probably an issue of rarity-plain and simple - and the client’s
call…
I wouldn’t undertake the research myself unless it is included in
the job quote- let the client make that call too…
Again I agree with Jeff Demand, that said It’s the client’s choice (
essentially) Everyone that said the toggle is the least safe clasp
that can be installed is dead on- that’s why i always recommend a
safety chain when a toggle is requested, and take on modifying the
warranty to reflect that the clasp is only warranted for workmanship,
the bracelet is not covered against loss in any way unless the client
buys insurance specifically for loss or theft ( I believe Jeweler’s
Mutual has a policy that is relatively inexpensive if a client has a
good bit of precious metal jewelry, or art jewelry).
So reconsidering the original post and my response, I would just
maintain the client’s business and give them what they asked for
explaining the repercussions fully…rer
Hey Angela,
I have encountered a few such outrageous demands from customers over
the years. I particularly remember a beautiful art deco platinum
bracelet, set with nice quality diamonds and emerald baguettes. The
customer wanted to cut out all of the little melee and have them
remounted into little nothing pieces for various members of her
family. The store owner offered to take the bracelet to Sotheby’s or
to sell it in the estate market, and then she could use the proceeds
to buy all of the melee and materials she wanted to make the new
pieces. She was very stubborn in her mindset, didn’t care about the
antique value of the piece, and insisted that the diamonds she
wanted to use had to come from the bracelet. Since I was a store
employee at the time, and only a few years at the bench under my
belt, I felt I had no other choice but to try to remove a number of
diamonds as carefully as possible. I actually felt sick to my
stomach while I was doing it, and I vowed that I would never again
be responsible for tearing something like that up again.
I have lived up to that vow, and if I cannot convince the owner not
to do the work requested, then I politely turn down the job, and
explain why. They can appreciate my point of view and experience, or
they are free to take the piece to someone else who doesn’t care
either. Those coins in your friends’ bracelet have been set in such
a way that is the least destructive to the coins, and that was done
on purpose. This is your opportunity to educate your friend, and
explain the value of keeping things intact. Even restoration experts
and archeologists try to keep things as intact as possible, and
ascribe to using the least destructive methods possible.
BTW, I did see that bracelet again a few years later. I was working
as a freelance tradesperson, and was asked to design a brooch with
the remainder of her diamonds. By that time, most of the links had
been cut apart, most of the diamond melee had been cut out with a
saw blade, and there was virtually nothing left intact of that
beautiful bracelet. I did design a beautiful brooch, but the
customer declined my design because it didn’t look like the rest of
the commercial stuff she was comparing it to, and with the odd
number and sizes of diamonds left, there was little in the remount
market that would accommodate her stones. I was actually happy to
have her decline the job because I realized I would have been
miserable doing the work, and she would have been unhappy with
anything other than a commercial look.
Listen to your gut, and stick to your guns! Your reputation for
honesty and quality is your best guarantee of future returns.
Melissa Veres, engraver
melissaveres.com
You could take out the coins and make molds from them. Then cast new
ones in 14K and go as she wishes. That way there is no lose of value
to the coins. Just a thought.
John (Jack) Sexton
You could take out the coins and make molds from them. Then cast new ones..
Good solution, but maybe also a bad idea?
I know it isn’t your intent, but doesn’t making copies of coins have
the appearance of fraud, or leave one open to an accusation of that?
Could it be considered counterfeiting? With an out-of-production /
out-of-circulation coin I have no idea, but I’d want to know for
absolute sure first.
What’s the first thing you associate with “Treasury cop”?
I’ll bet it isn’t “sense of humor”.
Neil A.
I had that thought too about the coins and the treasury people or
similar service showing up at the door. Perhaps if one side of the
coin was left blank and the truly decorative side was copied…
With antiquities such as roman coins, no problem but with others I
could certainly see problems arising.
I agree with John Donivan. the real weight is in the coins, not the
clasp and bezels…:-)…!
Janet in Jerusalem
You could take out the coins and make molds from them. Then cast new ones in 14K
That’s called “counterfeiting”. Technically any agent of the US
government can take it from you without any renumeration in return.
Knowing jewelry customers pretty well, I’ll say that it’s highly
unlikely that the lady who first put this together is wearing her
“coin collection” on her wrist. Meaning numismatics. More likely she
is wearing her goldcollection on her wrist, and she likes coins, as
many people do. I wouldn’t assume that, I’d check the values but my
guess is they’re going to be worth just about spot. I melt them down
all the time - they’re just gold. Some replies seem to want to treat
them like some rare, irreplaceable things. I can walk downstairs and
buy them anytime I like, for some percentage over spot. I believe it
was Snapple - Drink all you want, we’ll make more.
I shout NO!!! too. Don’t go blindly into the project.
If the bracelet is changed as you describe, not only the monetary,
but even the sentimental value is destroyed because it won’t look
like her memory of the piece. These are all antique coins and should
be valued as such. I doubt that the changes you describe will make
the bracelet that much lighter. If the existing clasp is in good
condition, knowing the value involved. I certainly wouldn’t change to
a lightweight clasp.
Does your client have a written appraisal for the bracelet? If she
does, request a copy of it (them). That should be #1 so you know what
your liability might be. Have her get several written opinions. If
she has no appraisal, and wants you to get the appraisals (that she
will have to pay for), get a written request for appraisals and a
receipt signed by her with photos including details of both sides of
each coin before you accept the piece. Then take it to 2-3 appraisers
and coin dealers to get written appraisals for the bracelet as is AND
what the value might be if you do as the client asks.
In any case, don’t do anything before you have written authorization
from the client with a detailed description of the changes requested
and have an appraisal and receipt for the bracelet. Check your
insurance to make sure you are covered if the deal goes South. Will
it be worth the aggravation if it does?
Good luck.
Jean
A few years ago, my Dad bought a 1969 Cougar ragtop. Absolutely mint
except for one thing - it had an anchor light from a boat mounted on
the right rear fender. Dad asked the guy, why the anchor light? He
said he wanted it because he couldn’t see when he was backing up at
night. He then went on to say he took it to three different body
shops before he found someone that would do it for him. Then he
said, “Best $2500 I ever spent. Isn’t it neat?” $2500 for a $40
anchor light, some wire and a switch. And two guys refused to do it.
Which of those three body shops did the “right” thing? The ones that
cared more about the collectible nature of the car than the guy that
owned it, or the one that installed the light and made both an old
man and his bank account happy? Dad wasn’t very happy though, it cost
him darn near the same to patch the holes. Same guy did it so at
least the paint matched. One happy body guy. Two jobs and a referral.
One thing that is missing from just about everybody is that the
bracelet belongs to the customer, not to the goldsmith. While any
request she makes concerning it may be uninformed or in our opinion
not necessarily a good idea, it is certainly not outrageous. We have
a responsibility to inform our customers of what we think some of the
pitfalls may be in what she may want to do, but after that, it’s hers
to do with what she wants. We can then decide to take her money or
tell her to pound sand (which doesn’t do much to help grow our
businesses, especially these days). People come to us because they
want our help. Flat out refusing to do what they want isn’t usually
the help they have in mind.
She wants a toggle, I agree, it’s probably not the best option. Show
her why, show her other options, tell her that you can’t be
responsible if she loses it in a week and a half, but if she insists,
make a toggle. Use as small a ring as possible, and as long a bar as
you can get away with, and even make a safety as Rick H. describes
(pretty trick, Rick!). Recommend she check with a coin dealer or
collector about what may happen to the value of the coins, but my
guess is that having been worn in a bracelet for many years, their
collectible value has been diminished about as far as it’s going to
be, bezels notwithstanding (they protect the edge - providing the
coins don’t spin, but do virtually nothing to protect the face,
especially with several on a bracelet). Explain the possible issues
with soldering directly on coins (I’ve never had a problem with
that). Explain how just removing the bezels probably won’t make it
all that much lighter than it is already.
If she still wants to do it, you can decide if you want the business
or not. If you say no, someone else is going to get the job, and she
won’t be coming back to give you another chance to turn her down. As
a very wise man once asked me “Do you want to be right, or do you
want to be rich?”
If you don’t want to do it, send her to me. I could use an extra
couple hundred bucks.
Dave Phelps
Secret service investigates counterfeiting. they really do not have
a funny bone.
John
Rasmussen Gems & Jewelry LLC
You could take out the coins and make molds from them. Then cast
new ones in 14K
That's called "counterfeiting". Technically any agent of the US government can take it from you without any renumeration in return.
That depends, I think. If the coins are current legal tender, U.S.
currency, here in the U.S., then yes, this would be counterfeiting if
the castings seem to exactly duplicate the coins. Reducing or
enlarging the scale, or doing only one side, would avoid the problem.
Either way, the proper karat and makers mark would also be needed, I
think, again to help distinguish the castings from real.
However, if the coins are no longer considered legal tender, even if
they are old U.S. coins, then I don’t think the currency
counterfeiting laws quite apply. However, laws about fraud and
misrepresentation, etc, such as would apply to the copying of, say,
an artwork, without permission, would apply. Here, proper marking of
the copy as such, with makers mark and karat, would avoid the
problem so long as the coin design is not covered by copyright (not
sure how you’d find that out…) I’ve seen nicely done copies of rare
coins, marked “copy” or similar, along with the other needed info,
carried by proper coin dealers and sold as such, and there’s no
problem with this, so long as everything is clearly disclosed, and
the copies clearly and properly marked. Note that these were no
longer any sort of legal tender, so treasury department or secret
service guys would have nothing to say about this…
Peter
I know it isn't your intent, but doesn't making copies of coins have the appearance of fraud, or leave one open to an accusation of that?
If they are ancient coins, then that’s not an issue (I’ve forgotten
which kind of coins they are). And perhaps the person could mold only
the front, leaving the back blank, I believe I’ve seen that done, and
that would make it clear these are not an attempt at creating a fake.
Elaine
CreativeTextureTools.com
coins and the treasury people or similar service showing up at the door. Perhaps if one side of the coin was left blank and the truly decorative side was copied.....
First off, no, it’s not likely that the Secret Service is going to
turn up on your doorstep because you molded a single coin for a
single bracelet.
But… There is money in the world that is no longer legal
tender. Offhand I can’t recite a list, but I know that prewar
deutchmarks are just birdcage liner now, and England changed their
whole money system some time ago. There are many. America doesn’t
have such a situation, and ALL money that is minted or printed with
a denomination is legal tender. As an aside, all US postage stamps
may be used for postage, no matter what the date printed on them.
You can, in fact, use a $50 gold coin to buy $50 worth of groceries,
although the notion is so bizarre that the clerk would likely
question it. But in the end, it is a legal thing to do.
In terms of bullion coins, which is about all modern gold coins, some
of them are coined with a denomination on them ~for that very
reason~, though they will never be used as money. IOW, if it is
coined with a denomination, it becomes subject to counterfeit law,
where if it has none it is “merely” fraud. Again, nobody is likely to
come after you IF it should happen that such people get wind of you
molding US coinage, they won’t have ANY sense of humor about it. They
just won’t care that you think it’s harmless, they have a long
tradition of tracking such people down. Not a smart thing to do.
very interesting (and opposing) responses to this thread. some people
seem shocked at the thought of soldering to or drilling through the
coins, others dont see it as an issue at all.personally i would say
any inherent added value to the coins as collectors item have already
been lost due to daily wear and tear in a bracelet. the few
collectors i know are only interested in pristine and flawless coins.
i guess, it still wouldn’t hurt to get a coin collectors perspective
on their value before carrying out the work but at the end of the day
they are the customers items and once you have pointed out a
potential loss of value, if given the go ahead i would jump at the
job!so many customers take sentimentality over actual value of items.
so many people want their heirlooms kept in the family rather than
selling them and buying something new.
if you really dont want the job you could point out to your customer
it is illegal (at least in the u.k) to deface coins. i.e, solder to
or drill through them.
This whole discussion is moot. The customer was advised about
potential loss of values of the coins, and at that point the
customer gets what they want. In the first place using a coin in
jewelry automatically destroys any nuministic value unless the coins
are exceedingly rare. Especially true if the coins have been in a
bracelet for awhile. It’s not the jewelers problem, or the customers
for that matter. The customer pays and what should follow is that
the customer gets what they want. You’ve done your job by advising
the customer, now do what they request.
I've seen nicely done copies of rare coins, marked "copy" or similar, along with the other needed info, carried by proper coin dealers and sold as such, and there's no problem with this, so long as everything is clearly disclosed, and the copies clearly and properly marked. Note that these were no longer any sort of legal tender,
Peter tells the story again. I gotta say that there’s an undercurrent
onthis thread that’s a little disturbing. To paraphrase one of
Saturday Night Live’s “fakey” commercials: “It’s the price-o-matic!!
Your very own pricing gun! Need a steak? Ten cents!!! Never pay full
price again!!! Get yours today!!!”
Don’t like your coins? Hey, make yer own! The thing is why anybody
needs to have this explained. Even molding ancient coins is fraud
unless there is clear proof that they are copies. Think about it -
just lately there was some outrage because somebody was copying David
Yurman. Hey, I’ll just make my own Faberge egg - I hear they sell for
millions. You just can’t do it, just because you happen to have a
vulcanizer. Well, sure you can, but it makes you a criminal. There
are a million things in this world you can have, and a million things
you can’t have. Making your own money, even if you don’t think of it
as money for your purposes, is one of the things you can’t have.
As a coin collector as well as a hobby jeweler I’d have to say that
there really are no hard and fast rules. In general, the coins
belong to their owner who can decide their fate. Are they already
damaged? Sure, but I have valuable coins that are probably worse. It
depends on what they are. If we are talking about commonly available
coins frequently sold in slabs from grading companies, stop stressing
over the value. If we are talking about aurii of Julius Caesar, don’t
touch em in any way that makes them worse. It all depends on what
they are. As far as laws about defacing coins, those only apply to
current circulating currency. If these are old coins that are not
"legal tender" then those laws would not apply. A good idea to know
what you have before you work on it!
Ben Brauchler
Don't like your coins? Hey, make yer own! The thing is why anybody needs to have this explained. Even molding ancient coins is fraud unless there is clear proof that they are copies.
But John, The copies I was talking about are indeed clearly marked
and sold as copies. There is no fraud. These are sold, at least the
ones I’ve seen, for two reason. One is inexpensive but pretty copies
of an otherwise literally unobrainably rare or costly coin. These
types are also the principal targets of those who are trying to fool
collectors fraudulently. But properly marked need not be terribly
obvious. Any collector worth two cents will examine a coin carefully,
usually with a loupe or better. proper marking along the edge of the
coin is quite sufficient to be sure the buyer knows what he/she is
getting, and to be sure the price fits the copy. These are not sold
or valued as real, but can be a nice way to fill in a space in a
collection that would otherwise be empty. And then there’s the other
reason to copy. That is for coin duplicates specifically made to be
used in jewelry. This avoids the whole issue of defacing valuable
coins, since these “coins” are themselves, simply jewelry. So long
as they are sold and marked properly, I really don’t see why you’d
have a problem with this. In fact, using such duplicates means nobody
needs to get upset about possibly damaging a valuable coin. In most
cases, these copies are of ancient or at least older coins, and I’ve
yet to see one where anyone might have suggested any sort of
copyright issues. So why do you worry about this?
Fraud is fraud, and that’s true whether someone sells a 10K ring
marked as 18K, or whether one sells a Tiffany copy from China as real
Tiffany jewelry, or whether one sells a cast Roman coin copy as real.
All are fraud equally. But when these issues are not present, as in a
ring with a copy of a roman coin instead of a stone, sold as exactly
what it is, then I see no reason to object.
But that’s my two cents (real Lincoln pennies, too.)
Peter