Don’t assume that a GFI receptacle in and of itself will solve the
problem. To work properly, your electrical system needs to be
properly grounded.
Tim
Regarding polarity: It is my understanding that plugs are polarized
(one prong wider than the other) to protect electronic components
from power spikes, and it has nothing to do with grounding the
appliance. True or false?
Janet
Is this a tingling or a 60 hz vibration?
With the stereo receiver, it was more like a vibration that I could
detect in my fingertips. Not exactly a vibration, though, and it
changed as I brushed my fingers across the front panel. This was in
a carpeted room.
With the sewing machine and serger, it was more like a tingling. If
I put my bare feet on the stone tiles, the tingling could be
unpleasantly sharp. At first I thought it was because the sewing
machine is old (a Singer Featherweight from the 1950s) and all
metal–but the serger is not. The serger also has a plastic case,
which seemed to imply that electricity couldn’t be leaking.
With the kiln, it definitely felt like electricity. I felt it all
the way up my left arm and into the side of my chest. It’s not
likely that all of these appliances are defective, so I am looking
for answers in the wiring.
Janet
Important advice from an Orchidian who has been an electrician for
35 years:
“Don’t ever work on anything electrical barefooted. You become the
ground.”
Janet
Thank you for the advice. I did not realize that a 2-prong appliance in a grounded outlet still presents a potential hazard.
My question is if the cord in question is the factory installed
cord, or if it was installed after market. If it is user installed,
the kiln may have been designed and intended for a grounded plug.
Frequently, people will remove the grounding prong from a cord
because they have an old two wire house. The people who posted that
you need to have the appliance itself tested are on the right track.
Most electrician are trained in ground fault testing in devices,
the megaohm meter (“megger”) is the right tool for the job.
I just learned that there are GFCI circuit breakers, to protect large areas of the house. Is this as good as it sounds? Receptacle-type GFCIs are required in so many parts of a house (outlets in the kitchen, bathroom, garage, attic, etc.), I wonder why the circuit-breaker-type are not the standard for new construction.
They are as good as they sound. They are becoming more common, but
they do cost about 2-3 times the cost of a single outlet (which can
protect multiple outlets down the line from themselves). I use them
in my own home.
Ron Charlotte – Gainesville, FL
@Ron_Charlotte1 OR afn03234@afn.org
I didn’t see any breaker box GFI circuit breakers at Home Depot.
Past practice in a lot of home construction has been to install a
receptacle type unit which then feeds all the required areas.
Depending on when the house was built and who built it you can find
a lot of different type installations. These multiple fed locations
can be a puzzle when one trips and can be a problem to upgrade
since the wiring wanders all over the house. A previous house 1980
construction had several individually protected circuits . My
current house ( also 1980 construction) has one GFI receptacle in
the garage area that also feeds the 3 bathroom areas --None for the
kitchen or laundry area (?). My daughters new house( 2000) only
has one feeding two bathrooms. I don’t understand the reason for the
cheapness. Upgrading is probably best just done at the circuit
where you need additional protection.
http://www-training.llnl.gov/wbt/hc/Electrical/GFCIworks.html
The electrical code added a requirement for arc fault type circuit
breakers in bedroom circuits effective in Jan 2002. these are at
Home Depot in one brand of breaker for about $25- $30 each .
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/afci.html
Your particular problem is probably a minor current leak across
the kiln insulation and could be a problem in the kiln design
—A GFI interrupter may trip every time you plug the kiln in.???.
You probably should just run a wire from the kiln frame to the
GREEN ground connection on the receptacle. Any unbalance in
the Current through this ground will trip the GFI
There are two types of receptacle testers at home depot – a
simple $5 unit that verifies that the receptacle is wired correctly
with a simple 4 light pattern. errors are diagnosed by the
pattern.
Another one $8 does the above but has a black button that tests a
GFI when pressed . If it is on a GFI circuit the circuit goes
dead and the GFI then needs reset.
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/afci.html
Hi Janet,
I wonder why the circuit-breaker-type are not the standard for new construction.
Basically, convenience for the homeowner/user.
If a GFCI circuit is tripped do to a ground fault, the GFCI outlet
must be reset before the circuit can be used again. Generally, the
outlet with the GFCI device is in close proximity to the rest of the
outlets attached to it. This makes resetting a tripped GFCI quick &
easy. If the GFCI equipped circuit breakers are used, the breakers
are located in the distribution panel for the residence. Usually
distribution panels are located outside (single family) of the
residence or in some inconvenient location. While these GFCI
equipped breakers work just as well, they’re a little more
inconvenient to reset when tripped.
Dave
Put a screw in the hole and wind a copper wire around it. The other side of this wire needs to be attached to a grounding source.
Don’t forget to remove any paint or rust/corrosion from the metal
where the wire will contact it. If there isn’t a good electrical
contact between the ground wire & the apparatus being grounded, you
may not have an effective ground.
Dave
Hi Janet,
I just learned that there are GFCI circuit breakers, to protect large areas of the house. Is this as good as it sounds? Receptacle-type GFCIs are required in so many parts of a house (outlets in the kitchen, bathroom, garage, attic, etc.), I wonder why the circuit-breaker-type are not the standard for new construction
Over here in the UK it is now mandatory that new domestic electrical
installations have a RCCD breaker installed in the fuseboard. This
is a ‘residual current circuit breaker’ which is one step up on the
old ‘ground circuit breaker’ and works by testing the amount of
current flowing in the live and neutral wires - if the current isn’t
exactly the same in both wires, it assumes that some has escaped
through a fault or through you and trips the breaker. For a number of
years the UK has used a system called PME - permitted multiple
earthing - to try to get over the problem of stray currents in the
earth circuit but it doesn’t reallt work and I have measured up to
70 volts (at a very low curent ) difference between earth and neutral
on my supply. This is enough to give a noticeable spark if you touch
the wires together and certainly gives a tingle to the touch but is
at a low enough current not to do any physical harm. Even at lower
voltages, susceptible people - those with damp, low resistance skin,
will feel noticeable discomfort. Fortunately, for electrical work, I
am blessed with a dry skin and so, even if I get a shock from the
240volt mains, it is only uncomfortable, however, I still wouldn’t
risk using anything with a 2-pin plug in bare feet! [In any situation
where electricity may be about, you should ensure that you have
instulated shoes on (rubber soled for preference), that the floor is
dry, and that you only touch any wiring with one hand at once (other
hand behind your back). This way any shocks will be minimised and
cannot pass across your heart. This is what has kept me alive though
my working life working on equipment at up to 11,000 volts.]
I would suggest that you get an electrician to test your
installation and have the kiln checked as well - of course, they may
not find anything and it may just have been electrical leakage coused
by damp or high humidity in the air but at least you will be
reassured that everything is safe.
Best wishes,
Ian
Ian W. Wright
Sheffield UK
This thread is extremely interesting! I am glad that it was started.
Thanks!
A few years back I heard or read about electrical leakage. It was
said to leak from the wires in our walls and appliances to the extent
that we should not have our beds placed so that our heads are not in
close proximity to the wiring or outlets.
Considering that warning about the natural tendency of electricity
to wander or leak, it makes sense to me that our Orchidians are
discovering such diverse examples of leakages.
The most exasperating example of loose electricity that I have
encountered was in the local Costco store. I used a wheelchair and
for some reason when ever I got around areas with outlets that hung
from the ceiling or the freezers, I had to be sure not to touch any
metal or I would get a real jolt. Employees said they knew there was
a problem but had no idea of the origin of it. You can be sure I was
delighted when they announced that the store was moving. I have had no
problem in the new store.
Frif
Regarding polarity: It is my understanding that plugs are polarized (one prong wider than the other) to protect electronic components from power spikes, and it has nothing to do with grounding the appliance. True or false?
It’s a bit more complicated than that. In most modern US
residential and light commercial wiring, the neutral and ground are
actually bonded together at the breaker panel, and a lot of plastic
cased appliances and tools take advantage of that fact to avoid the
need for a ground conductor. The wider blade is neutral, and the
narrow is hot.
The polarization is a good thing for a lot of technical reasons.
Improperly wired outlets and appliance cords can result in some
pretty bizarre phenomenon (I’ve seen a dishwasher that would run by
itself because of a hot/neutral reverse. The voltage bypassed the
motor controls and ran back thru the motor, completing the circuit
via the ground wire.). A single reversed outlet in the middle of a
string of correctly wired ones can have some pretty funky effects on
the other outlets as well.
(I’m a jewelry hobbyist, and a 20+ year electrical worker)
Ron Charlotte – Gainesville, FL
@Ron_Charlotte1 OR afn03234@afn.org
I just learned that there are GFCI circuit breakers, to protect large areas of the house. Is this as good as it sounds? Receptacle-type GFCIs are required in so many parts of a house (outlets in the kitchen, bathroom, garage, attic, etc.), I wonder why the circuit-breaker-type are not the standard for new construction.
As electrical engineer in my previous occupation I will add a
couple of thoughts. The first is that GFCI’s are a great idea at
individual outlets but you may find them more than a little annoying
if they are installed at the breaker panel and are set to protect
whole circuits. They have a tendency to occasionally trip with the
starting of motors. This may result in frequent trips to the breaker
panel to reset the GFCI breaker. This is why if you have a good
electrician they will set up a separate circuit only for the
refrigerator in your kitchen so that it will not trip the GFCI’s
that are required on the convenience outlets in the kitchen. As this
outlet is hidden by the refrigerator most inspectors will allow it .
Second any electric kiln is a potential shock hazard and you are
taking a risk if you reach into it when the power is applied.
Reaching into an energized kiln is a bad idea period. This applies
to the little table top “beehive” types with the elements encased in
ceramic and to the larger ones with exposed elements. It is right up
there with fishing a piece of toast out of the toaster with a fork
when it is plugged in. 999 times out of a thousand you will get away
with it but all it takes is once to kill you so don’t do it. Unplug
or at the least turn off the power before reaching into a kiln.
Jim Binnion James Binnion Metal Arts Phone (360) 756-6550 Toll Free
(877) 408 7287 Fax (360) 756-2160 http://www.mokume-gane.com
@James_Binnion Member of the Better Business Bureau
A couple of more issues heve been brought up in newer posts.
Hot Water Systems.
I mentioned that a faulty Hot Water element can be a cause of
tingles. As mentioned in other posts, the element can be completely
split and still operating. As well as causing “tingles” or worse
shocks, this can destroy your Hot Water System as sometimes it will
literally burn holes in the casings. If you get tingles from taps
and you have an electric Hot Water System, checking the element could
save you the cost of a new system.
GFI circuit breakers on switchboards.
In Australia, these are now standard. It is also now very common
over here to have a small switch board containing the circuit
breakers inside the house - the meters etc are still outside on the
main switchboard. We call these small units load centres. It is now
law here that basically all new home circuits are GFI protected
including lighting and refridgeration circuits. It used to be
allowable to not have fridges on GFI (people worried that the GFI
tripping when they were out could cause the food in the fridge to
spoil) but it was found too dangerous. I once saw a fridge that had
been rewired so that all the current was returning vian the earth
wire - a fatality waiting to happen.
The advantage of individual GFI on each circuit instead of one
larger unit covering several circuits (which is cheaper) is simply
that less equipment goes off if a single item fails and it makes
finding problems easier. Also, older equipment may be “leaky” as may
heating elements. Individually the leakage may be acceptable but
combined it all adds up. In this case you have a small leakage all
the time - not enough to trip the GFI but so that it will trip with
the slightest fault - this can cause a lot of false tripping.
Cheap Tester with 3 lights available from hardware stores.
These are available over here as well. I used to keep one in my
toolbox. They work well and tell you if the wiring is correct. They
can be “fooled” by multiple or uncommon faults but generally work
very well. They have three neons usually - one between active and
neutral, one between active and earth and one between neutral and
earth.
I used to get quite a few caravan / camper owners to buy one just so
they could check their connection every time they hooked up. I came
across two live caravans - that is truely scary.
Regards,
Brian.
Sunny Mackay, North Queensland, Australia.
Where it is now 84F at Midnight.
Your sensitivity can vary by how much moisture is in your skin and what kind of footwear you are wearing. Women are more likely to use hand cream and wear thinner soled shoes.
Well, we had our hands in dishwater, and until I went to college I
hardly knew what shoes were.
Hi Brian, Since you are an electrician, this is the time to ask. I
have been asking this question to Elaine Corwin from Gesswein and to
Peter Rowe - very good sources in my opinion. Both of them assured me
that there would be no problems. The problem is that I’m getting
paranoid in my old days, so here I go again. I have a Neycraft
burnout oven and a couple of other things that I purchased in the
USA: a Foredom flexible shaft, a tumbler and so on. These things work
on 110 volts. We are moving to Ireland in a five weeks from now. I
can of course buy some adapters over there, but I heard that they
don’t work well. Or they work well, but they don’t last long. Of
course this is rather crucial to me. Is there anything else I could
do except buying adapters (without engaging into wild electrical
schemes - I don’t know a thing about electricity)? Or are there
special adapter for ‘industrial’ equipment or something like that?
Sorry for asking, but couldn’t resist. Best, Will
Regarding polarity: It is my understanding that plugs are polarized (one prong wider than the other) to protect electronic components from power spikes, and it has nothing to do with grounding the appliance. True or false?
Janet, It has nothing to do with spike or surge protection. It is
not about grounding. It is to try to insure that the neutral and hot
leads do not get reversed for safety. Grounding is accomplished by
the ground conductor not the neutral.
Jim Binnion
I have been asking this question to Elaine Corwin from Gesswein and to Peter Rowe - very good sources in my opinion. Both of them assured me that there would be no problems.
Thanks, Will. but just so you don’t make Elaine and I look like
idiots, lets explain that I, at least, and I’m assuming also Elaine,
told you that you would have no problems doing this IF you used the
proper types of adapters. AND, that probably would mean more than a
plug converter. Some things (some motors, especially), can be easily
rewired to use 220 volts instead of 110, and some of them don’t mind
the difference between 50 cycle and 60 cycle AC either. So these
items can then be easily modified by any decent electrician, to work
with 220 volt, 50 cycle power (If that’s what they have there. I
don’t know, but assume it is, or you’d not have needed to ask) And
some things like Kilns, if they’ve got dial elements that could be
switched to run in series when they now run in parallel, could then
also be easily modified to work with the different power. (though
whether the kiln controls would like this is another question…) But
there will be a number of tools that, simply put, want 110 volts.
For these, the things usually called “adapters” are useless. For
those, you need a step down transformer, to take the higher 220 volts
and turn it into 110. Whether these hold up well and last, depends
entirely on the manufacturer of the unit. Like any appliance, they
can be made cheaply, or well. What you buy is up to you. It’s
possible that such conversion transformers sold through industrial
suppliers might be more robust, as well as more costly, than the
cheapest thing you might find sold to consumers. The main safeguard
I can think of in this regard is to buy units rated for higher
current levels than you’ll actually need. That will keep the
transformers running cooler, and heat is the big enemy of such
things. But like anything, higher rated transformers (higher
current, not voltage) will mean bigger, heavier transformers, and
more cash.
Peter
Your sensitivity can vary by how much moisture is in your skin and what kind of footwear you are wearing. Women are more likely to use hand cream and wear thinner soled shoes.
Well, we had our hands in dishwater, and until I went to college I
hardly knew what shoes were. The reply wasn’t intended to be sexist.
It was merely an analysis of possibilities as to why two men were
not reporting feeling any shocks while Jane was. What I would have
liked to have done is invite the electrician that told Jane it was
all in her head to take off his shoes, wet his hands and confirm his
assurance that everything is safe. After all, what the gander says
is good for the goose should be good enough for him. (She did use
the pronoun “he” when referring to the electician.)
Now there is even more of an indicator your fuse box is not properly
grounded, Any tingling from water pipes should be regarded as
potential disaster and an increase in the consumption of power.
Doesn’t the basic law of physics state that the more resistance, the
more pressure it takes to overcome and maintain? Ringman john Henry
Hi Christine,
These things work on 110 volts. We are moving to Ireland in a five weeks from now.
Your 110volt appliances will work OK in the UK and Ireland if you
use a 240 - 110 volt isolating transformer. The best place to get one
which is suitable is a builders supply place, or maybe an auction of
builders equipment. To reduce the shock hazard of power tools on
site, it is mandatory that all builders, electricians, etc. power
tools are fed from portable 110 volt isolating transformers and so
there are many about available both new and second hand, They are
always encased in very rugged yellow plastic cases to stand being
thrown about on site and usually have at least two outlets on each
transformer. The only downside is that you need matching plugs on
your appliances - sort of a yellow version of the caravan power plug.
The only other thing you will need to consider if you are bringing
your existing appliances with you is that we operate at 50 Hz not 60
as in the US and so anything which has a synchronous motor such as a
timer will run slow. Is it really worth you bringing your existing
equipment or would you be better selling it and buying new over here
- getting it serviced might be easier that way?
Best wishes,
Ian
Ian W. Wright
Sheffield UK