Can't Get a Stuller Account

Jewelry Discussion
41

At Indian Jewelers Supply Co., we’re not Stuller, and we don’t
portray them on TV. We sell to/buy from Stuller. It’s a great
relationship. We do things that “Stuller won’t do”. Stuller does
things that “IJS won’t do”.

Beginning students everywhere, including penitentiaries, get equipped
at I.J.S. We don’t get difficult until you become utterly,
irretreivably unreasonable. Even then, we’re very forgiving. We help
the “low-end” jeweler maintain a shop, or graduate to “high-end”.
Stuller doesn’t do much for saddle-and-tack makers, but no big deal.
IJS will. Ditto that for knife-makers, medium-scale sculptors,
musical instrument makers, and other non-jewelers.

For the foreseeable future, IJS won’t stock platinum, but will
special-order. Stuller will stock platinum. Ditto diamonds, certain
plating supplies, etc.

What is important is that we are all part of The Creative Body. No
one part can do what another can, but all parts are nourished by the
work of the other parts.

Thanks for reading,
Dan Woodard, I.J.S.

42

It’s interesting to read the arguments raised in the debate about
Stuller accounts. First I don’t have one, as I am not a full
“professional”, I don’t need one and probably won’t even if I become
a full time jewelry maker. Stuller have an absolute right to regulate
their accounts for their own commercial reasons, but I don’t think
anyone is doing them any favours by casting them as the protectors of
the “real” jewelry manufacturers as opposed to us “unserious, unreal,
unpeople”. Look up the concept of “restraint of trade”, not something
a company wants to indulge in.

My main business for over 20 years has been in computer software, the
niche I am in is small but international, I’ve been involved in
businesses in four continents. In the software industry the world
and his dog is your competitor. No one cares very much if you have
the right letters after your name, no one cares what you did before
you wrote the software, or how long you trained, or where you trained
or how you trained. The things that matter are: does your product do
what it should do? Do you look after your customers? Are you honest?
Are you of value?

Regarding the ability to have the “inside track” on prices of
materials is just turning your product into a commodity by the
emphasis on price, and when you start using price as the primary way
you get business you are heading for big trouble, it doesn’t matter
if it is rings or software that you sell, the outcome is the same.
Believe it or not it’s accepted that writing truly great software is
not an engineering challenge, but one of creativity and artistry. If
you’re a good artist you’ll survive, if you want to sell on price you
will have a hard time no matter how you protect your sources of
materials, programmers or gold…

Andrew in Sunny Cincinnati with a cat on the laptop…

Andrew Jeavons
www.andrewjeavons.com

43

Hi:

The attitude that wholesalers should sell to just about anyone is
one of the primary reasons diamond markups fell so much in the last
15 years. Diamond dealers routinely sell to people they know are
not in the trade at wholesale (or actually slightly above it) and
it has had a tremendous impact on the ability for jewelers to make
a decent profit on the diamonds they do sell.

I’m going to site AdamSmith’s “Invisible Hand” theory here. Loosely,
in a free market economy, companies will act in accordance of their
own best interests, which is exactly what wholesalers do (and should
do). Adam Smith’s theory fell short, however, in that humans (when
acting in their own best interests) can and will commit acts that
are not in the best interest of the society as a whole. When left
unchecked, Adam Smith’s free market economy will eventually fail. A
man named John Nash came and modified the theory to say (loosely),
in order for the free market economy to exist and not fail, companies
should act in accordance with their own best interests and also in
the best interests of society as a whole. As we know, humans are not
perfect. This theory also falls short. Unfortunately, imho, you are
relying heavily on this theory when you expect that Stuller (and
other wholesalers) will keep wholesaling to “legitimate” companies
only. Eventually, what happened in the diamond industry will happen
with the jewelry industry as a whole. The market prices will come
down, not all the way down to current wholesale levels imho, but to
prices between wholesale and current retail. The market, as a whole,
will benefit greatly, as will the retail consumer. However,
companies that rely too heavily on wholesale fixed pricing will
suffer. I’m not saying anything about anyone being wrong or right and
I’m not even saying I am right (or smart). There is only efficiency
and inefficiency. In a free market economy, things will always move
in the direction of efficiency. Right now, Stuller and other
wholesalers are inefficient (as is their right). This cannot go on
forever. The only thing in a free market economy that goes on
unchanged is the fact that the economy keeps changing. Formulate a
plan “B”, in case, one day soon, the wholesale prices that you rely
on are no longer available. Please keep in mind that this is my
theory, cumulatively, of how things work. I am operating in my own
best interest. I am not implying that anyone change because of what I
say, only that they read and research. Try to plan for your future by
becoming knowledgeable of the changes around you.

Best Regards
Kim Starbard

44 
Eventually, what happened in the diamond industry will happen with
the jewelry industry as a whole. The market prices will come down,
not all the way down to current wholesale levels imho, but to
prices between wholesale and current retail.

if that happens all independent jewelers will go out of business.
There will only be low quality crap, and high end jewelry. Most all
repair is done by independent jewelers, and that will go bye bye
also. IMNSHO

Right now, Stuller and other wholesalers are inefficient (as is
their right)."

Pardon me, Stuller is the model of a company that is built to
succeed. Independent jewelers are as loyal to Stuller, as Stuller is
to us. Matt Stuller is my hero. He is at the top of the list as the
model for ethics in the jewelry industry.

There seems to be a lack of understanding or comprehension as to the
basic concepts of how retail works, regardless of what is being sold.
No wonder the high failure rate of new businesses. I never knew what
to attribute the last 15 years of my mediocre success, but apparently
there are a lot of people who will shoot themselves in the foot and
apparently not relate to why they are in pain. Or, I can acknowledge
myself for being a little smarter than I gave myself credit for.
Thank you. If any of you open a retail business, I hope you have
enough money to make up for the learning curve some of you apparently
will suffer. Apparently from some of the posts, there is a lack of
knowledge about retailing, and sadly a lack of respect for retailers.

The market, as a whole, will benefit greatly, as will the retail
consumer."

WALMART…WALMART…WALMART…is that what you want. Or you do have
a choice, Sam’s club and Costco, sorry!

When retail prices are controled by consumers, and lower prices do
not mean more sales, just less profit for the retailer, it seems that
there will be catastrophic job loss, and businesses going under.

I went to Mexico eight or ten years ago, with a friend who was raised
there. He was shopping, looking for Mexican made goods. Everything
was Hecho in CHINA! Eight or ten years…guess what we might be in
for? We know that the middle class is disappearing. It is just a
matter of how fast we are in a downward spiral.

Pogo, for those of you old enough to remember, said " I have met the
enemy and it is me."

Richard Hart

45 
The market, as a whole, will benefit greatly, as will the retail
consumer.

I’m not so sure this will be the case. Actually what has happened in
the diamond industry is that the market as a whole has suffered. The
retail customer thinks they are benefiting but in reality they
aren’t. Prices are down. Sounds great! But at what cost. So all those
diamond companies have to cut their prices. Then they have to reduce
their overhead. This translates to less jobs. Less jobs translates to
less people earning a reasonable living who can no longer afford the
product that the diamond companies want to sell (or the products that
everyone else is trying to sell). Oh sure, they can sell a lot more
of those industrial grade pieces of broken glass cut by butchers
somewhere but how does that benefit anyone?

It goes back to the Wal Mart syndrome. Sure companies can sell junk
for next to nothing by outsourcing and treating their employees
badly. Sure those companies will make money. But who’s making money?
Do you see any profit sharing at Wal Mart? The owners of Wal Mart
make plenty (and the stockholders) but what about everyone else? And
if all those employees don’t make enough to afford anything what good
does it do you in the long run? I know that in my case, you would
have to get way up into upper management level for anyone at Wal Mart
to afford my goods. So how does it do me any good that we have a
bunch of people who are earning less and less because of the lower
prices offered by companies like Wal Mart? Or that will earn less
because the market forces salaries down in other fields too. I want
everyone to earn a LOT of money because then I have a much larger
customer base to draw from.

There is a big difference between a healthy, expanding economy and a
free market economy (especially one in which the entire economy is
structured by the government to support only large businesses).

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140
@Daniel_R_Spirer

46 
and when you start using price as the primary way you get business
you are heading for big trouble,

This isn’t the issue at all in this discussion. I’m not price driven
at all but I still understand the need to have a supplier who is
dealing with the trade and not at a basically retail level. Non
professionals simply should not have access to some of the wholesale
discounts that professionals are able to access. And quite frankly I
find the argument about software design to be completely specious.
You design software, you don’t make a product that has material
cost. The hardware producers in the computer business (like Apple or
Sony) don’t wholesale their product to the general public. Why should
jewelry supply houses?

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140
@Daniel_R_Spirer

47

Charles,

Regarding the "Can't get a Stullar account" question and some of
the comments surrounding that issue. First let me say, I
understand Stullars position and I can live with it. I am however
reacting to some of the comments regarding at home/garage jewelers
or those that havn't made a "true committment".

I want to not only say I agree with you sentiment 100% in
what you wrote in your post, but I dont exactly feel the same about
Stullers policies as you. Then again, its Stullers business, and how
they do their policy is up to them. I might not totally agree with
how strict they are with it, but that is their choice. Besides,
there are plenty of places in the US, like Rio, and out of the US to
get supplies at comparable prices. would just like to add that I
personally know of 3 jewelers who workin their basement. They are
long time jewelers who use to own stores or worked at the bench for
a store for years. They are all 3 very talented and respected
jewelers in my area. They decided to work from home and dorepairs
for pawn shops and stores who dont have in store bench jewelers or
on items that might be a specialty skill the in store jeweler cant
or doesnt want to do. These 3 at home basement / garage jewelers
make not just a decent living, but a very good living.

Also, has anyone read Chuck Koehlers recent article in Mid America
Jewelry News titled " Hug your jeweler today! about how he and others
he knows are having troubles finding skilled jewelers to work in
their shops. Apparently it is getting to be a big problem nowadays. I
guess when a skilled bench jeweler who has the incentive can make at
least an living working for himself in the basement or garage, why
would he want to work for someone else, 5 or 6 10 hour days a week,
at $15 or $20 an hour and no benefits most of the time when you could
maybe do at least that good in the comfort of your own home! Then
again, this is just my opinion based onmy observations.

By the way, if you don’t get the Jewelry News in your region you
should, its free, and I think most would love it just for Chuck’s
witty articles.

Daniel

48

Charles,

Thank you so much for your response. It made me feel a little less
lonely in this boat that life has battered. Again Thank
you…Charolette

49 
This isn't the issue at all in this discussion. I'm not price
driven at all but I still understand the need to have a supplier
who is dealing with the trade and not at a basically retail level.
Non professionals simply should not have access to some of the
wholesale

I don’t like being undercut by a competitor who outsources to <>, but
I can hardly complain to Microsoft about them supplying tools to
them, because they aren’t US programmers and so shouldn’t be allowed
to buy from them. If someone undercuts you on cost I believe it’s
called competition, isn’t that the basis of free trade ?

discounts that professionals are able to access. And quite frankly
I findthe argument about software design to be completely specious.
You design software, you don't make a product that has material
cost.

But it does have very significant costs, material or otherwise, it
has labour as a direct cost and a bunch of other costs, which are
just as expensive as materials.

The hardware producers in the computer business (like Apple or
Sony) don't wholesale their product to the general public. Why
should jewelry supply houses?

You don’t seem to undertstand what Apple and Sony do - they sell the
equivalent of finished jewelry - a consumer item. It has components
they buy from suppliers. Their suppliers sell them the components at
wholesale. If I go to the computer component suppliers and say “give
me 500 motherboards”, they say “wire us the money and they are
yours”. They don’t check that I am a “real” computer manufacturer,
they may check my credit but that is all. Free trade, they sell to
anyone with money, they don’t try to vet who buys their products. So
I think your argument here is invalid.

I have to say that I don’t think the underlying motivation for people
who want Stuller to only supply professionals is just the problem of
undercutting by hairdressers. It’s more about not being looked up to
and recognised as special I think. Not something a Stuller account
will ever solve…therapy maybe?

Andrew
Andrew Jeavons
www.andrewjeavons.com

50 
The retail customer thinks they are benefiting but in reality they
aren't. Prices are down. Sounds great! But at what cost.

Unfortunately, when you talk about things in an economic sense,
factors like human cost (as in horrible working conditions and human
tragedy) are left out. Thinking purely economically is like trying
to live in a bubble. The goal is to maximize profit while minimizing
cost…and that’s pretty much it. Like I said, if left unchecked, a
free market economy will fail. The reason for this (I think) is that
humans are not perfect. They can and will go to unscrupulous lengths
in the name of profit. I (as well as many people on the list) don’t
like that people will act this way, but just because we don’t like
it, doesn’t mean it will go away.

There is a big difference between a healthy, expanding economy and
a free market economy (especially one in which the entire economy
is structured by the government to support only large businesses).

The definition of free market economy would be that it is free of
being structured by the government (or anyone else). We, in the U.S.,
don’t live in a free market economy.

I feel like I’m getting to long winded, but I read a case history a
while ago about a garden shop owner. A big chain store came into
town and she became very worried. How could she compete against
someone so big. To make a long story short, on service and
reliability. She offered things the big store couldn’t…like
personal landscape design assistance and door to door delivery
service. She not only survived, she thrived. She had a plan B.

I’m saying, what’s your plan B? It’s got to be more than writing
posts, complaining about Walmart.

Best Regards
Kim Starbard

51

The word inefficient here is not meant in a negative way at all. It’s
also not meant to describe anyone’s character. I’m sure the guys at
Stuller are really nice guys. The term inefficient vs. the term
efficient is meant in an economic sense only. An example…Company A
can maximize profit by selling 1000 units at price X. If it sells
units at anyprice above X, it will not sell as many units. Any price
above X is therefore said to be “inefficient”. When a company places
any kind of controls on who is allowed to buy their product, they are
reducing the number of “units” they are able to sell. They are
operating in an “inefficient” manner. For their own reasons (loyalty
to retail jewelers for example) Stuller is choosing to not maximize
profit at this time. This is very beneficial to retail jewelers and
wholesale companies like Stuller have every right to operate as they
do. We live in a free market system (kind of). The Walmarts of the
World will come. It really doesn’t have anything to do with what I
want or don’t want. I’m saying, should the wholesale prices that you
rely on to operate go away, what is your plan for success?

You have every right to be very proud of your business and the fact
that you have been able to keep that business going for many years.
As I said in another post, businesses like yours (that live beyond 3
years) are very rare.

Best Regards
Kim Starbard

52

I’ve been following this thread with interest.

Mike and I are members of a group of store owners and this general
topic is a big one on that list also.

The main complaint of retail stores in our group is that there are
many suppliers out there who sell “wholesale” to just about anyone
who claims to be in business. Some of them even advertise “wholesale
to the public”. Some of these wholesalers don’t even require resale
license info., etc,. to give a customer a good discount as long as
they buy enough for a minimum order. Others don’t do "due diligence"
in verifying the customer is indeed a business in their trade and
sell (with a nice discount) to anyone who gives them a resale number

  • even if the resale is for Suzie’s Curl Up N Dye.

The types of buyers who have no conscience about bending the rules
make things difficult for those of us who are legitimately in
business - it means that companies like Stuller HAVE to make us jump
through hoops to establish an account. There are the “designers”,
who want to buy at wholesale for their personal use or to sell once
in a while at a craft fair fundraiser. There are bulk buying groups
who expect that because they buy in quantity, they should get the
same or better prices than the local stores do! Then, there are the
buyers who actually stoop so low as to make up a resale number and
steal a photo from a website and claim it is THEIR storefront!
Wholesalers have to go through a great deal to protect themselves
from things like this. For the wholesaler, there could be large
fines, penalties and interest from their state’s taxing authority if
they sell wholesale “incorrectly”. They aren’t making it difficult
for you so much as they are trying to make it easier for them when it
comes to taxes, etc.

When we first started the business, I didn’t understand a lot of this
and thought it was just a bunch of rigamarole by the wholesaler to
hassle customers. Now that we’ve been in business for a while, I’ve
discovered that I like companies who make a new customer go through
the gauntlet and provide satisfactory before giving them
a wholesale account. One of our suppliers is so strict about
protecting their customers, they won’t sell to you if they already
have a customer within a certain radius of your store. I’m sure this
hurts them; they could make much more money if they sold to EVERYONE
in the same area, but they are doing business the old fashioned way.
As a customer, I appreciate this.

Deb Weller
Weller’s Jewelry and Beads
Mesa, AZ

53 
The main complaint of retail stores in our group is that there are
many suppliers out there who sell "wholesale" to just about anyone
who claims to be in business. Some of them even advertise
"wholesale to the public".

There is no such thing as “wholesale to the public.”

Wholesale prices are those offered to the trade. “Wholesale to the
public” claims are dishonest on the face of it.

Lee

54 
I'm saying, what's your plan B? It's got to be more than writing
posts, complaining about Walmart.

I don’t need a plan B. I’m still working on plan A and it’s working
fine for me. I’m not threatened by Wal Mart or by anyone else for
that matter. I sell a product that doesn’t have competition. I make
enough money that my only problem is paying the tax bill to the
government. But the problem is that you stated (if I remember this
correctly) that it was fine for prices to be pushed down through the
ability of anyone to buy at wholesale prices (this condenses it quite
a bit, but that was the gist of the statement). It isn’t fine. It
doesn’t benefit anyone in the long run. In the short run it’s great.
In the long run everyone suffers. It forces more people out of
business which reduces the number of people who have money to spend.
The less people who have money to spend the fewer items can be sold
by everyone (not just me). Remember that I also said that I want
EVERYONE to make as much money as possible so that anyone can buy my
stuff. It just increases my sales base. When I make more money I can
hire more people (with benefits) who then have more money to spend
(maybe on your stuff as well!). It’s that old trickle down theory
only I kind of look at it as a trickle sideways type of thing.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140
@Daniel_R_Spirer

55 
If I go to the computer component suppliers and say "give me 500
motherboards", they say "wire us the money and they are yours".

That’s right. If you go to them and say send me 500 motherboards
they will send them to you. BUT if you go to the manufacturers and
say I want to buy 1 motherboard they sure as hell aren’t going to
sell it to you at a wholesale price. If someone goes to Stuller and
says I need 500 cufflink backs (which in and of itself is an
indication that they are a serious business) you can be sure they
will open an account with them. That’s not what most of the people
who are complaining want to buy. They want to buy one or two pieces
at a time as it suits their own small needs.

It's more about not being looked up to and recognised as special I
think. Not something a Stuller account will ever solve.....therapy
maybe?

Umm. Let’s see I want to be looked up to and recognized as special by
whom exactly??? Certainly not by Stuller (other than the fact that
I’m special because I pay all my bills). By other jewelers? I
couldn’t care less if other jewelers think I’m special as long as
they know I’m honest. By my customers? Of course but I don’t tell
them to look up to me because I buy from Stuller (I don’t tell them
any of my sources). I get looked up to because I’m a professional
and I have more experience than most jewelers do (which in this case
means I’m better than most other jewelers are). And you know
something, because of that, and the fact that I pay my bills, and
because I have a huge amount of loyalty to those suppliers who do
respect what I am (and who don’t sell retail), I do have a right to
be treated differently than other people.

Daniel R. Spirer, G.G.
Daniel R. Spirer Jewelers, LLC
1780 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02140
@Daniel_R_Spirer

56

Charolette, I’m glad I was able to encourage you, even just a tiny
bit! Daniel, thank you for your thoughtfull remarks. I beleive as
you do that the “Wal Mart scenario” will wreck things here in
America, eventually. While I’m not a expert on economics I do worry
about what I am seeing and have seen in the last 10 years or so.
Construction trades in my area are booming and the medical field is
screaming for more nurses. There is an increasing amount of
manufacturing being done elsewhere and an ever shrinking pool of
skilled craftsmen available to our industry. This can be a good thing
for a well rounded bench jeweler who is very skilled and can speak
english and communicate tactfully with customers. Increasing use of
technology can help take the edge off and make us more efficient. The
problem is finding our niche and enough of the right customers who
can and will pay for quality labor. In my various hobbies I have been
involved in, I have seen some of the same things happening with
foreign labor making those pastimes more affordable for the American
consumer. Its hard not to take advantage of the inexpensive overseas
products when they are often just as well made and about half the
cost or less of domestic products. On principle, I avoid purchasing
chinese made products but its hard to avoid the temptation. I worry
about the long term effects this will have on our economy and my
industry specifically. For now, I must concern myself with what I can
choose to do in my tiny universe.

charles

57 
I'm saying, what's your plan B? It's got to be more than writing
posts, complaining about Walmart.

When you are making plan B, you are planning for plan A to fail.

And Stuller is to independent jewelers as Disneyland is to amusement
parks…they both are number one, and second best is so far from
what either is…they actually do not have competition. Most of the
other companies strength is a few specialties that Stuller does not
carry. Or you order a product that Stuller carries from that
company, and you save a few dollars. Not worth my time. I would
rather get the product from Stuller, show my loyalty and gratitude.

And that is what you want from your customers by giving them what
they want, the way they want it.

And does anyone know and understand Stuller’s “Have it your way
program”. They set the stones in the mounting and size it for you,
and their workmanship is very good, I can have it in five business
days, and their labor price is lower than what I can do it for or
have it done for. Talk about a win-win?

Most Consumers probably would not find Stuller, so all the
independents buy for their customer from Stuller. That is
efficiency. How would you like to have thousands of unpaid sales
people across the U.S. selling for you?

Having it my way,
Richard Hart

58

Well, as far as Stuller’s gem supply is concerned, I recently had a
conversation Re: Stuller with someone recently retired from 45 years
in the gemstones biz who said she can “beat Stuller with my eyes
closed”. And she weren’t kiddin’ either…:wink: I haven’t bought
settings from them, but a few of their rings have passed through my
hands, and I must say, I like my “other brand” settings better.
Stuller isn’t all they’re cracked up to be… I too applied for a
Stuller account, but I balked when they asked for the trade
references fo a certain amount, copies of invoices, etc. That’s
proprietary and their only real purpose in requesting it
is to get free market research. Highly unethical, if you ask me.
Don’t let them BS you.

Brian Corll
Vassar Gems