Cad applications can do this…so other options are to do some Zbrush
or Tsplines surfacing and get the more organic items into a surface
to produce.
Other than that you can get some pretty non uniform surfaces if you
know how with Rhino, RhinoGold or Matrix…We instruct these online
for you to pursue.
Russ Hyder
I've been thinking about CAD. The CAD jewelry I've seen does look "square" and "engineered" and often anonymous. I was thinking of learning CAD, but does it produce many charms, creatures, netsuke, or things like sculpture?
Square and engineered… depends where you look.
I had a look at the Matrix 3D (which is a fairly high end product)
gallery :-
Granted not all of them are “great”, but most are very nice, and
very fluid. Everyone one of those images can be output to a machine
for carving or layer deposition.
What you can produce, how fluid it is, is up to you, and how much
time you want to devote to learning it.
Delicate, well that depends on how good your casting house is. The
casting house I use, can burn out and cast the finest lace. Which
means if you can produce a wax model with lace-like qualities, you
can cast it.
If you can make a netsuke in cad you can make the other sculptural
pieces you mentioned :-
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep7zas
click on the image for more examples.
Regards Charles A.
Regarding all of the CAD systems discussion, at MJSA we published a
helpful chart in the February 2011 issue of MJSA Journal that broke
down and compared all of the various CAD systems that are currently
available. While there have been some minor changes since its
original publication (version numbers, pricing, etc.) many of our
members and trade show attendees have found the chart useful for
getting a basic overview of what systems are out there and what
their capabilities are.
We also have a similar CAM chart available. Feel free to direct
message me off-list with your and I’ll be happy to send
over a PDF.
Travis Searle
MJSA
rhino, zbrush, tspline,maya, clayoo...Since this is a useful discussion. Rhino is the original off-the-shelf consumer CAD program, in a way. It is as rigid as anything else, though of course that's up to the user. Zbrush is a fine program - I know it well - it's not CAD at all, it doesn't even have measuring units. Models drawn with Zbrush require exporting to another program to make them usable for hard copy.
I know Maya ~very~ well, and it’s the same - there is no real
measuring in Maya, just relativity.
“This is one unit and that is two units”. Not really at all suitable
for CAD or CAM - real machining. I know someone who uses Maya and
the results were difficult to get and not very good, really. Again,
PICNIC applies - Problem in Chair, Not in Computer. Also those are
both mesh modelers, which topic has been covered before, here on
Orchid.
To illustrate - probably most readers have seen Star Wars. Towards
the end, the fighters fly down a “canyon” on the Death Star, trying
to put a bomb into a tiny little hatchway. That was all drawn and
animated in Maya. There’s a plane (flat surface) with the Death Star
paraphernalia built in, and there are the fighter rockets flying.
It’s all set up and animated, and there are virtual lights and
virtual cameras, and everything is scaled to everything else. The
animation is played and the cameras roll and there is your scene. If
you were to actually “print” that world to scale, it might be a half
inch across or it might be four feet, there’s really no way to tell.
It’s just scaled within itself - that’s what Maya is made for, to
make little worlds that can be filmed and exported as a movie
(sometimes stills…)
IMO, unless someone is a computer geek and really knows how to
translate graphics and formats and tinker with things, you are
better off either starting with Rhino or going to the verticle
market jewelry CAD - Matrix or 3Design.
Sally,
The reason a lot of the jewelry from CAD /CAM appears square is that
many folks stop at that point… and never learn to do anything
different. With some practice, you can make about anything that you
want to dream up… yes, even delicate flowers. The success really is
in time and practice. I noticed in another posting someone said they
“Were frustrated by the limitations”… well, there are few if any
limitations as long as you want to spend the time learning. Somehow
folks think the process is “Automatic” and that couldn’t be further
from the truth. It is no different than learning any other bench or
jewelry making technique. “Practice makes perfect”.
If users want to spend some time learning…then get into CNC. If
not, you are better off leaving it alone and doing the work by hand.
Good Luck. Dan.
IMO, unless someone is a computer geek and really knows how to translate graphics and formats and tinker with things, you are better off either starting with Rhino or going to the verticle market jewelry CAD - Matrix or 3Design.
That’s very good advice.
Getting a non-specific or cinematic modeller to produce a printable,
or machinable, file is not always straight forward. Chances are
there’s someone on a forum somewhere that’s already attempted or
mastered the conversions.
I like Lightwave, there is a measurement system within Lightwave,
but when converting to a.stl file (which Lightwave doesn’t natively
do) the measurements don’t sync. You have to take this into
consideration when making models for printing or machining.
It’s much easier to get Rhino + Rhino Gold, but if you have the cash
you’d buy Matrix (well I would).
Regards Charles A.
...well, there are few if any limitations as long as you want to spend the time learning. Somehow folks think the process is "Automatic" and that couldn't be further from the truth. It is no different than learning any other bench or jewelry making technique. "Practice makes perfect".
There are a number of online video displays which show robotic
machines carving stone. From what I can determine now, I would want
to invest in these in two stages: the first is at a 10 K level
desk-top level and the second at a 100 K robotic arm level. No
investor likes surprise costs. No investor wants to buy a “pig in a
poke” as the saying goes and end up with an expensive pile of nuts
and bolts sitting in the back of his shop.
Here is an example of a robotic arm doing a stone carving and it
looks like a highly automated process.
The word automation means “make automatic”. That is why robotic arms
are bought for assembling cars and hundreds of other jobs. They are
also capable of precision in carving and even surgery beyond human
capability. One reason has to do with the tremor which is inherent in
the human system. Torart may be able to replicate Michaelangelo
carvings more precisely than the originals.
When it comes to automated machinery, the word “learning” as above
means following instructions just as you follow road sign
instructions to get to your destination. In jewelry there is a lot of
perceptual-motor learning which is very different. The former is
amenable to cost control while the latter is not. I once thought of
going to dentistry school but was told that I would have to carve a
near-perfect tooth in the first year. This is like some of the work
jewellers do and I knew I did not have that aptitude. How much would
it have cost me to hire private tutors to teach me tooth carving and
maybe after spending years at it I would still not be good enough?
If I buy a robot in a box that is only the HW (hardware). If I have
to learn how to assemble it I need to know the time/cost. Those
learning modules include:
-assembling the HW
-installing an OS (Operating System)
-using the OS to install applications SW
-using the SW to do the carving
-operating the HW (eg changing end effectors,
the tools of the robot)
-repairs and maintenance
Can anyone think of others?
We investors are taking REASONED chances on revenue to offset costs
and bring a fair return for risk and investor’s time and labour, ie
revenue. That is enough to take on. If I could infallibly predict
revenues I would play penny stocks and become the richest man in the
world within a year.
I am an investor and not a gambler.
I can however control costs and reasonably require FULL CO-OPERATION
of the robotic supplier/seller in knowing those costs in advance.
Hi there,
When I decided to go CAD I researched the market and came up withe
the decision that 3DESIGN is “THE” CAD program for me.
What I liked about it is that has a history tree where at the end
you only have one file saved and at any time you can go back make
changes to your design, prong size, stone size and shape, finger
size or even changing the finger size and stone size on an eternity
band, the program will recalculate and add or remove stones
according to the new size. I have been training people on 3DESIGN for
the last 5 years, I can say it is very user friendly and it’s a
program designed for jewelers and not some engineering program with
jewelry add one.
I haven’t seen a program that can lay down pave with ease on any
kind of surface as 3DESIGN can.
I got lucky to test the new version 8 which is about to come out
"WOW.
YES, you can create organic forms in CAD and have regular pieces not
to look “CAD” if you know what you are doing. CAD is the future and is
already here.
You can see some 3DESIGN videos on
You Tube mostly on V7 and up coming V8 versions.
Enjoy!
Vasken
I agree Charles, but not just because I teach Matrix, Rhino, and
RhinoGold online at The Jewelry CAD Institute. I have been using
these programs for over 12 years and brought on Matrix and Rhino at
GIA. Anyone that wants Matrix just needs to sign up for a module of
training with us and we can get it to you for 6 months for $295
domestic or $345 for international. Consider it a trial version but
fully functional with as many saves as you want. A good bit of my
workflow advice goes toward curves and surfaces…master these in
Rhino, RhinoGold, or Matrix and you can be an expert modeler. I use
these programs daily and there is always a challenge out there no
matter how good you may be. Just remember whatever you may choose, it
is just another tool in your box!
Best,
Russ
"Were frustrated by the limitations".... well, there are few if anylimitations as long as you want to spend the time learning.
Since itwas me who said that, I guess I should take it farther. I’ve
modeled a human face in Maya before. I’ve found Maya to be ~easier~
to use than most other CAD programs I’ve used, and I’ve at least
played around with all of them. Solidworks, Catia, Pro/E, Solid Edge,
Autocad, Turbocad, 3dS Max, 3Design… Maya as a total program
is incredibly complex, modeling with it is pretty simple, though. It
took me 100 times as long to model a face as it would take me to just
carve one in just about any material. My carving would be finished,
too, and far less labored than a computerized face. It’s one thing to
allow for polishing a wedding band, it’s quite another to allow those
tolerances on a sculpture. Those who are carvers understand what I’m
saying - for the others it’s just too complicated to get into here.
The single greatest limitation that {jewelry} CAD has is that it’s a
wax-working method and yes there’s also RP. Either way, it’s casting.
I imagine some will get riled at the thought of - limitations…
But there are plenty.
And CAD is a wonderful thing for what it’s good and suited for. It’s
just not suited for everything, that’s all.
I heard that the Jewelry School International teaches CAD. They are
in Austin, TX I believe. Also possibly the GIA but I’m not sure
about that.
When I decided to go CAD I researched the market and came up withe the decision that 3DESIGN is "THE" CAD program for me.
The TAFE where I study chose Rhino + Rhino Gold over 3Design, simply
because they didn’t have a student discount.
The TAFE probably would have taken 3Design over Rhino… it was an
economic decision.
Regards Charles A.
Peter, that sounds like the subject for a “old addage” of the
future: “Man who can’t carve one tooth in a year, shouldn’t try to
carve mountains with a robot arm”. Maybe it wants working into
something a bit more pithy?
Jamie Hall
I teach 3DESIGN at JSI at my school in Austin Texas and 3DESIGN
provides us with student version programs for six months and gets
renewed for another six when the student signs up for the advanced
corse. 3DESIGN also has two versions of the program a full license
and design only license which is the 1/3 of the price of the full
license. The difference is that the design license can not create an
STL file, so you have to find a service bureau that uses 3DESIGN and
the will convert your file to STL. 3DDSIGN provide you with a list
of the service bureaus.
I highly recommend 3DESIGN, it surpasses all the CAD programs with
its parametric ability, its free shaper function (sculpting) and the
Rendering also the ability of creating and adding to your material’s
library. Not to forget its pave tool. Any way it’s worth to invest in
to it because it will pay you back with its simplicity and time
saving tools.
Call them up, they are very nice and will do on line demos about
anything you want to see the program can do or you want it to do.
Vasken
I am pretty good at pithy adages. I like “making the world better
through transformations” in the Sto:lo Atlas. Stone transformations
are the foundation of Sto:lo culture, cosmology and world view
symbolized in the Transformer Stone statue.
I like, “If I cannot go to the mountain, the mountain will have to
come to me”. Maybe piece by piece. And in removing those pieces we
carve the mountain -lots of ways to do that. “There’s more than one
way to skin a cat” (pithy enough?).
These postings are interesting and I am making notes. As Dan
Dearmond says “… you can make about anything that you want to dream
up… yes, even delicate flowers”. That is really pithy. We can
cut/carve Bouchart Gardens types of flower boxes out of the nephrite
escarpment, sell the pieces and generate revenue to advance the
project.
I wonder what kind of flowers one might carve out of nephrite with
enamelled multi-coloured petals. Tourists would like that.
But as far as the automation part goes, as VT posted, who wants to
take on “some engineering program” with a jewelry -robotic add on.
And yes, if I buy automation tooling from ATS in Ontario I do expect
it to make the work AUTOMATIC.
But again I need to know ALL exact costs in advance just as I need
to know how many mpg my new car will get.
I highly recommend 3DESIGN, it surpasses all the CAD programs with its parametric ability, its free shaper function (sculpting) and the Rendering also the ability of creating and adding to your material'slibrary.
I sat through about a 3 hour seminar on 3Design with Vaskin a couple
of years ago. Kind of a teaser, “do you want to buy it” sort of
thing. He’s very good at it - beyond many CAM people I’ve known, and
a good teacher, too. Helluva nice guy, too…
Thank you, to all, for responding to my jewelry CAD inquiries - on
and off forum… I’m most grateful for this forum… always
fascinating and so much to learn… Vasken: I look forward to
learning more about 3Design and will check out the videos… thank
you!
Jenn
I teach 3DESIGN at JSI at my school in Austin Texas and 3DESIGN provides us with student version programs for six months and gets renewed for another six when the student signs up for the advanced corse.
Maybe it has changed now, but there was no student price in
Australia, so the decision was for Rhino + Rhino Gold.
Once a program is in place, it would take a lot of change it now.
Regards Charles A.
Hey Charles I use 3design,
Could you tell me more about you training classes?
Gregg
Yes it does take a lot for schools to change systems because of cost
and retraining of instructors.
Vasken