CAD/CAM stuff

Jewelry Discussion
21

Hi Bruce You post presents an interesting scenario. Am I to
understand that you are actually absorbing the costs of Rapid
Prototyped patterns rather than passing them along to your wholesale
client?

I am simply curious, if the above is the case, why must you absorb
the prototyping costs? Is the wholesale business so competitive now
that you must?

I’d like to try your service bureau so see the results. I’ve deleted
the previous message, could you please include their contact
with your reply?

Thank you
Jeffrey

22 
    Well, I was talking with one of my SLA suppliers today and
found out why the patterns are so costly.  I was informed that a
smallish machine (500mm x 500mm) costs about $750,000

I saw a used Sanders machine for sale @ $25,000 a few months ago.
New was $65,000. I strongly suspect that these prices are way high
for what the future will bring. My first printer was a noisy dot
matrix that printed 100cps. Cost me $400. Now one can find printers
that do pretty close to photographic rendering for $100 or less. As
more people start to use the RP machines there will be more
competition. I won’t expect $100 RP machines ever, just a lot
cheaper. In the meantime, I’ll be happy to let someone else make the
investment.

Bruce D. Holmgrain
JA Certified Master Bench Jeweler
http://www.goldwerx.com

23 
    Am I to understand that you are actually absorbing the costs of
Rapid Prototyped patterns rather than passing them along to your
wholesale client?

At this point, I am trying to displace the time/energy of handmade
wax and metal fabrication with RP made models. I am getting close to
fast enough with modeling in Rhino to make this pay. For instance, it
is far more efficient to model a bangle in Rhino and send the file
out for RPing. This cost is pretty easily made up through time saved
modeling in wax and finishing. Other jobs that i am doing are taking
a lot time off of the bench because I am still suffering on the
learning curve.

The transition from Rhino 2 to Rhino 3 caused a great deal of
frustration in that my models were consistently ending up with naked
edges for a number of months. The program is doing a much better job
now.

I am convinced that this is the direction of jewelry construction so
even though I am not getting rich

    I am simply curious, if the above is the case, why must you
absorb the prototyping costs? Is the wholesale business so
competitive now that you must?

It is …

    I'd like to try your service bureau so see the results. I've
deleted the previous message, could you please include their
contact with your reply?

I have been using DPT http://www.dpt-fast.com/

Bruce D. Holmgrain
JA Certified Master Bench Jeweler
http://www.goldwerx.com

24 
    Spray the wax with Teflon. It's thin enough to not fill in any
details, and closes the pores. I've just had several Sander's
patterns (highly detailed patterns) cast into platinum by Bobo at
BestCast, which is a good deal more problematic than gold,

Hey Jeffrey,

Why are Sanders waxes problematic?

As for casting in platinum, I have been using Doc Robinsons Miracle
Casting Elixir with a lot of success. This investment hardens up to a
rock in about 3 minutes. I would suspect that plastics that expand
before melting or burning would present no problems at all. As I said
before, I haven’t used and waxes from Sanders machines because they
seem to be costing me about twice what I normally pay.

Bruce D. Holmgrain
JA Certified Master Bench Jeweler
http://www.goldwerx.com

25

I doubt very much that we are going to see a reduction in cost of
true RP machines anytime soon. There are simply not enough buyers
in the marketplace to bring the cost down. In order to make it cost
effective for most of us to own one, the cost would have to be under
$5k.

Now, take the scenario of the printers. One of the reasons that
prices are so low is because everyone needs to buy one. They sell
1000s of printers a day. Also, the physical quality of today’s
printers is terrible compared to yester year. You could not kill a
Dot Matrix printer and the supplies were cheap. Now you buy a $100
printer and, if you use it a lot, spend $100 every couple of months
to refill the supplies. Not to mention that todays printers (Inkjet
type in particular) break all the time. They get clogged, wires
break, gears pop off, etc… Todays printers are considered
disposable. The last inkjet type that I owned cost about $98 and
lasted 6 months; after that, I opted for a laser. Low price is not
a good thing when it sacrifices quality.

I would love to see the RP machines come down in price to the point
where most of us could buy one, but I don’t think it is going to
happen.

26 
    I would love to see the RP machines come down in price to the
point where most of us could buy one, but I don't think it is going
to happen.

Hi Silverfoot. Twenty two years ago I bought a computer with 32K of
RAM and no storage. Cost me $399. My next computer was a XT clone
with 640K of memory and 20M of storage. Legend has it that Bill Gates
and Andy Grove were talking about processors and Bill said “No one
will ever need more than a megabyte of memory.” That little
exchange caused memory issues for years. Look where we are today.

As these machine were produced, more and more uses have been
discovered. Likewise , this has fed the need to have more of them.
The same, I think, is happening with this assortment of 3D printers
that is on the market now. In Fact, most of the technology that is
being incororated in them is relativly old. As the prices come down,
more and more uses will be found for them. With current cost of
owning these machines where they are, if I owned one, I would try to
keep mine running 24/7. You can bet that if I couldn’t fill that time
with jewelry fills I’d be looking at lots of others.

Bruce D. Holmgrain
JA Certified Master Bench Jeweler
http://www.goldwerx.com

27

Bruce We’re certainly on the same page here! The main difference
being I am dealing exclusively with retail clients. When I have dealt
with wholesale clients, I swap out the cost of wax carving with the
build cost and call it even, but I charge for my modeling time. My
work usually ends up a bit more expensive, but is all around very
high quality, with near perfect symmetry etc thanks to Rhino. I’ve
been learning Rhino since v.1 came out, and I’m still learning. I’ve
sure saved a lot of time by learning good Boolean technique! I’m
trying to get off the bench as much as possible by offering 3D
pattern modeling and 3-axis (4th axis coming soon) milling services
to anyone who needs it, and keeping my modeling prices low until I
have too much work to do.

Jeffrey

28

HI Bruce Sander’s waxes, unless sealed, allow investment to penetrate
slightly into the surface, not very much, but enough to highlight the
stair stepping effect of the Z (vertical build) layers. The problem
is that some platinum investments take many hours to set up, and some
patterns to be cast into platinum require this kind of investment to
capture the finest (weakest) details. Doc Robinson’s investment (I
use it too, and have used ringless casting systems since the 80’s) is
excellent because of the fast setup time, but it is a weak investment
where tiny details are concerned, and we’ll use the hard Japanese
investment for those castings. Well, not quite “we”, I stopped
casting platinum a couple of years ago and now use those casters that
use over-pressure machines and know how to sprue for platinum. Even
so, it took 3 attempts to achieve good platinum castings of my last
pieces of fine Celtic weaves printed on a PatternMaster (spruing
tricks).

Who did you say you’re using? Somehow I doubt they could print the
patterns I create well, but I’d like to try.

Jeffrey

29 
    Who did you say you're using? Somehow I doubt they could print
the patterns I create well, but I'd like to try.

The Sanders models are much better detailed that the SLA models that
I am using. The SLA tha I have has done by DPT-Fast have served my
purposes, however.

I wonder. How can you afford three failures on a casting? I know
that it happens, but in my case, it really starts to chew up the
profits.

Bruce D. Holmgrain
JA Certified Master Bench Jeweler
http://www.goldwerx.com

30 
    HI Bruce Sander's waxes, unless sealed, allow investment to
penetrate slightly into the surface, not very much, but enough to
highlight the stair stepping effect of the Z (vertical build)
layers.

I visited M2 Systems in Conneticut a few months ago and did not see
any stepping in the Z direction. I wonder if these were newer
machines. They were trying to dispose of a couple of older
machines(they were trying to dispose of a Sanders or two @ $25,000).
In addition, they were looking at buying a German made machine that
seemed to be 3-4 times as precise as the newer ones with no signs of
growth.

    Doc Robinson's investment (I use it too, and have used ringless
casting systems since the 80's) is excellent because of the fast
setup time, but it is a weak investment where tiny details are
concerned, and we'll use the hard Japanese investment for those
castings.

The Doc’s investment allows no gases to escape. I have run venting
sprues away from the resevoir to avoid trapped gases on a couple of
ocaisions. Seems to have worked well for me.

Bruce D. Holmgrain
JA Certified Master Bench Jeweler
http://www.goldwerx.com

31

While doing research before buying my 3-D milling system, I had a
conversation with someone representing a Rapid Prototypeing system.
The conversation eventually got around to the actual cost of
operating/maintaining such a system. He said that it would not be
unreasonable to expect to spend $1000+ a month for maintenance on
these machines for replacement injectors, heating elements, etc.
Just wondering if these machines have become more durable over the past 5 years.

32 
   I wonder. How can you afford three failures on a casting? I
know that it happens, but in my case, it really starts to chew up
the profits.

Hi Bruce

The caster absorbed the losses. BestCast... he wants to maintain

his reputation for excellent platinum casting… Great guy.

Jeffrey

33 
  While doing research before buying my 3-D milling system, I had
a conversation with someone representing a Rapid Prototypeing
system. The conversation eventually got around to the actual cost
of operating/maintaining such a system.  He said that it would not
be unreasonable to expect to spend $1000+ a month for maintenance
on these machines for replacement injectors, heating elements, etc.
Just wondering if these machines have become more durable over the
past 5 years.

I recently researched the RP possibilities with SolidScape
machines… What I was told is that the jets are guaranteed for 6
months, and may need replacing after that, but could possibly last
one year or more depending on usage. The jets cost $1000 each. If
care is taken with the machine, heated lines etc should not need
replacement. So the estimated maintenance for hardware is only about
$4000/year or less. If you look at keeping a service contract, that
runs about $6000/year, and jets etc are replaced without other cost.
So, $500/mo seems about tops for maintenance.

Jeffrey Everett

34

To all those using CAD/CAM software and systems, I have a few
questions and would like your opinions. I am relatively new to the
jewellery field, making hand carved wax models and some custom
jewellery. However in my prior career, before being downsized, I did
have some hands on experience with 3D CAD/CAM systems on much larger
scale items.

1 - As far as I know, there are 3 basic CAD systems developed and
used in the jewellery field. Jewelcad, Artcam and Rhino (with
Gemvision’s Matrix enhancements). I have downloaded trial versions
of Rhino & Jewelcad, and seen Matrix operate at a trade show. What
are your unbiased opinions of each of these packages and which do
you prefer to use?

2 - Or does each have a specific application that it is best at?

3 -What has the support been like from each of these software
developers?

4 - In terms of producing an actual model, can a 4 axis milling
machine produce similar pieces to other RP machines such as
SolidScape’s T66 or other types of RP machines?

5 - Has anyone had any experience with Gemvision’s Revo540 milling
machine?

6 - Those with both a CAD and CAM system in-house, has your work
been primarily for your own use, or do you operate as a service
bureau?

7 - Those that send CAD files to a service bureau, do you have long
lead times? Is there a shortage of service bureaus?

I would be grateful in receiving responses either on or off list.
Kindest Regards,

Richard Dubiel

35

Rhino offers tremendous flexibility for design.

Matrix is a great program, and a real time saver. The guys at
GemVision have done a LOT of work to write scripts in Rhino that
automate certain functions. For more complex pieces that can’t be
done within Matrix, one simply calls the Rhino functions right within
Matrix, as it’s built on top of Rhino.

ArtCam includes great CAM , does great heightfield surfacing of
domed and angled surfaces, but it weak in the modeling area. It’s a
different type of program than Rhino.

I haven’t seen any impressive work with JewelCad, but that really
doesn’t mean anything other than I haven’t seen any impressive
work… :slight_smile:

Jewelers also use several other programs. Some are CAD exclusive,
and some have both CAD and CAM. I understand the newest version of
Type3 is killer… Cimagraphi is a popular program. TrueSpace is used
for jewelry too, as is SolidWorks, etc…

One really has to look at the type of jewelry they want to produce
and purchase the program that can create it best.

    2 - Or does each have a specific application that it is best
at?

Yes, all are quite different.

Rhino is NURBS surface modeling at its best. I use it extensively
and constantly to produce complex jewelry models. Matrix, as
mentioned above, automates many complex routines to save you time.

ArtCam is a heightfield modeler and CAM program or great
capability. It uses gradients invisibly to produce raised 3D surfaces
from outlines, and has some basic other modeling capabilities. I
haven’t seen the latest release, but I understand it’s improved
considerably. It’s quite capable in its own way, and I would love to
own it, but it’s quite expensive at about $7000.

I can’t say much about JewelCad as I don’t know anyone who uses it,
nor have I seen any impressive work from it, which doesn’t mean much
:slight_smile:

    3 -What has the support been like from each of these software
developers?

Rhino support A+ Matrix support A+ I don’t know about the others…

    4 - In terms of producing an actual model, can a 4 axis
milling machine produce similar pieces to other RP machines such as
SolidScape's T66 or other types of RP machines?

Depends on the model, and on the capability of the CAM program to
use 5 axis indexing for 4th axis milling. Sorry for the complexity. 4
axis milling has several levels of sophistication, and only the most
expensive CAM programs make full use of the 4th axis milling machine
capabilities. Just the same, 3D printing can produce most any
pattern, and 4th axis milling just simply cannot. The problem is the
cutting tool geometry, and accessibility of the area to be cut.

    5 - Has anyone had any experience with Gemvision's Revo540
milling machine?

I haven’t physically used on, but I can tell you it’s probably one
of the very finest 4 axis desktop machines available.

    6 - Those with both a CAD and CAM system in-house, has your
work been primarily for your own use, or do you operate as a
service bureau?

My own use, and an occasional job for jewelry stores.

    7 - Those that send CAD files to a service bureau, do you have
long lead times? Is there a shortage of service bureaus?

Depends on the service bureau, period. You can get two day service,
or 2 month service, depending on who you use.

No problem, good luck!
Jeffrey Everett

36 
    1 - As far as I know, there are 3 basic CAD systems developed
and used in the jewellery field. Jewelcad, Artcam and Rhino (with
Gemvision's Matrix enhancements). I have downloaded trial versions
of Rhino & Jewelcad, and seen Matrix operate at a trade show. What
are your unbiased opinions of each of these packages and which do
you prefer to use?

There’s also Jewelspace, by Caligari (it’s an adaptation of
Truespace.) And Delcam has recently come out with a jewelry-specific
version of ArtCam. But I don’t think it’s necessary to spend extra
money on these specialized versions of basic CAD programs unless you
really need a “head wizard” to help you design a Tiffany head, or a
library of standard gem shapes.- these are just canned routines that
inhibit creativity, in my opinion.

    2 - Or does each have a specific application that it is best
at?

Rhino is the best general-purpose modeler I’ve used. ArtCam is best
at converting 2d art into 3d reliefs. Jewelcad is mostly a point-of
sale tool, as far as I can tell - it’s good at shuffling together
standard gemshapes and settings while a customer waits, but affords
little scope for artistic input.

    3 -What has the support been like from each of these software
developers?

Rhino’ support is good; I don’t have experience with the rest.

    4 - In terms of producing an actual model, can a 4 axis
milling machine produce similar pieces to other RP machines such as
SolidScape's T66 or other types of RP machines?

Similar but different. A milling machine can produce a smoother
surface, but there is more design flexibility with an additive RP
process than a subtractive one. For one thing, it’s necessary to
support a part while you’re cutting on it, so it will have to have
some uncut surfaces, but a built-up model can have detail on every
surface, since a temporary support structure is built along with the
model. It’s also possible to have undercuts and other features one
can’t reach with a rotating tool.

    5 - Has anyone had any experience with Gemvision's Revo540
milling machine?

Not me. Is it a servo or stepper system? They don’t offer any data
on its speed, accuracy or repeatability on their site:

    6 - Those with both a CAD and CAM system in-house, has your
work been primarily for your own use, or do you operate as a
service bureau?

Mostly it’s my own stuff at this point, although I have done some
work for others.

    7 - Those that send CAD files to a service bureau, do you have
long lead times? Is there a shortage of service bureaus?

There is starting to be a fair number of them, but I’m sure that
many localities don’t have one.

I would be grateful in receiving responses either on or off list.
Kindest Regards,

I’ll try both, since my posts seem to take a couple of days to
appear (I suppose it takes the Orchid staff some time to strip off my
beloved square-bracketing…)

Andrew Werby