Bronze from copper pipes

some excellent references to historical bronze usage. They even
have some Chinese edicts listing the percentages of tin and copper
required for the manufacture of items from teapots to axes. The
history of copper is a very interesting read. 

Charles, I agree. The earliest textual material on copper alloys
comes from ancient Iraq – cuneiform texts dating to the late third
millennium BC (ca. 2000 BC) from Ur give percentages of tin and
copper needed to produce a bronze alloy. Texts from ca. 2500 BC
speak of the percentage of alloy in bronzes. The earliest
Mesopotamian “bronzes” date back into the 4th millennium. Most of
them are made of arsenical copper (probably smelted from mixed ores).
For the best works on this issue, see P. R. S. Moorey, Ancient
Mesopotamian Materials and Industries
(Oxford; 1994), pp. 240ff. on
base metals, and Karen Reiter, Die Metalle im Alten Orient (Mnster;
1997), pp. 149-343 on Kupfer and Bronze.

Judy Bjorkman

If all you are interested in is historical bronze then yes it was
copper and tin with various other metals as impurities but for at
least the last 50-75 years the following definition has been in
place. 

Yeah I’m old school, nothing wrong with that :wink:

The problem is that a lot of people making historical replicas,
don’t appear to know much about alloys, a lot use silicon bronze and
phosphor bronze, because it has the word “bronze” in it. It also
looks wrong, it does not patinate the same, it does not corrode the
same.

Everdur is a product that was given the definition “bronze” to
appeal to artists, and it’s cheaper to make than a true bronze.
Personally I prefer the colour of a true bronze, and if you play with
the tin percentages it’s almost like mixing paint.

If an fish were called a sea kitten it still wouldn’t be a mammal.

Broadly speaking, bronzes are copper alloys in which the major
alloying element is not zinc or nickel. Originally "bronze"
described alloys with tin as the only or principal alloying
element. Today, the term is generally used not by itself but with a
modifying adjective. For wrought alloys, there are four main
families of bronzes: copper- tin-phosphorus alloys (phosphor
bronzes); copper-tin- lead-phosphorus alloys (leaded phosphor
bronzes); copper-aluminum alloys (aluminum bronzes); and
copper-silicon alloys 

There we go “broadly speaking”, this is not discussing technical
bronzes, it’s discussing copper alloys.

I’ll repeat this again, Evedur, is know as silicon bronze, and also
silicon brass even thought it contains neither tin or zinc.

It is not a marketing ploy but an attempt to classify various
copper alloys in a systematic fashion. Bronze alloys are a harder
more durable class of alloys than the Brasses are so it makes since
to class the aluminum, and silicon bronzes along with the
phosphorus (tin bearing) bronzes. 

The problem is that people make things too complicated. A series of
numbers should suffice for copper alloys. Even bronzes can be given
a series of numbers 90/10, 80/20 (aka bell metal) etc.

I think changing definitions that have been in place for thousands
of years (not for merely 50-70 years) is not a good thing imo.

Regards Charles

Hi Andy,

As soon as I find a source for copper, ( hopefully grain) I am
going to try casting, alloying directly in the crucible a 90/10
alloy. If you care to see some of the things I have been
casting,you can do so at: oldworldbronze.com. 

If you can’t get 100% tin, 99.8% appears to be very close, just
wondering what the 0.2% is ?

If you increase the tin to copper ratio, the alloy will lighten.
80/20 is almost a white metal.

80/20 is also called bell metal for its tonal qualities, however
it’s very brittle, and thin castings will shatter if dropped onto a
hard surface (I know I’ve done it :frowning: ).

I haven’t noticed a great difference in meltpoint, still takes about
3 - 5 minutes with propane.

I like the colour of that bead on the page from the link.

Regards Charles

For historical replica work I agree using traditional alloys adds
depth to the work.

Everdur is a product that was given the definition "bronze" to
appeal to artists, and it's cheaper to make than a true bronze. 

Your point is opinion which of course you are entitled to but
everdur is an industrial alloy and the artistic market is likely not
that big a deal for the manufacturers and again the term bronze comes
from a standards organization not the manufacturer

There we go "broadly speaking", this is not discussing technical
bronzes, it's discussing copper alloys. 

Again this is your opinion not one that is supported by
international standards. As all bronzes are copper alloys, by
definition if it has more than 50% copper it is a copper alloy.

The problem is that people make things too complicated. A series
of numbers should suffice for copper alloys. Even bronzes can be
given a series of numbers 90/10, 80/20 (aka bell metal) etc. 

You are right that is why standards organizations like the CDA have
developed the whole system of numbering of alloys But your assertion
that bronze is only copper and tin is far from the historical
reality as lead and other metals were deliberately added to improve
the performance of bronze alloys back to the earliest days of their
use. Ancient foundrymen had their secret additions to modify the
alloys. And unintentional alloying elements like arsenic also affect
the materials performance. So where do you draw the line? Calling it
just copper and tin is a simplification.

I think changing definitions that have been in place for thousands
of years (not for merely 50-70 years) is not a good thing imo. 

Again for historical accuracy using old formulas are a reasonable
approach but saying only copper and tin is bronze is just
ridiculous. Commercial tin bronzes have intentional additions of
zinc, lead, antimony,iron, aluminum, phosphorous, sulfur,nickel etc.
as component elements. Virtually the only place you will find a
copper tin binary alloy is going to be in a hobbyist foundry. As the
additional elements listed above are used to shape the properties and
performance of commercial tin bronze alloys.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

Charles wrote at the end of his response:

P.S. Is it Aluminum or Aluminium

Makes me recall the little story about the tinker long ago who came
up to the back door of of the manor house and asked if there were any
old metal pots or pans that needed refinishing. Mistress of the
house: “Are you copper-bottoming 'em?” Tinker: “No, I’m aluminiuming
'em, Mum”[rimshot!]

Denny Turner

With CDA521 you are also losing phosphorous every time you melt it.
While you can add tin easily enough adding phosphorous is going to
require adding copper phosphorous shot to the melt as well. THe big
problem is how much to add as it will change the properties of the
metal significantly if you get too much or too little.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts