It was my understanding that methanol *fumes* are quite toxic, that it is not necessary to ingest it to be harmed. Am I wrong?
Yes they are toxic, so another reason not to leave the jar open
except when actually dipping the work in it.
James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts
It was my understanding that methanol *fumes* are quite toxic, that it is not necessary to ingest it to be harmed. Am I wrong?
You’re correct that methanol fumes are toxic. But you need
significant exposure. Small occasional exposures to slight amounts
won’t hurt you. But the fumes are one reason (the other is avoiding
evaporation) why you use a container with a lid or cover of some
sort. It’s also why many of us use hardware store Denatured alcohol,
not straight methanol. The hardware store Denatured might have had
methanol as the denaturing additive, but it’s still mostly ethanol
(vodka minus the flavor and extra water) Much less harmful fumes that
way. And you don’t need to keep that alcohol container right under
your nose either. One assumes your workbench area has at least
minimal ventilation or air flow, since you’re doing soldering/torch
work at all. That should be sufficient to handle any small amount of
alcohol fumes you encounter.
Peter Rowe
So I am wondering... presuming that alcohols mix OK, would it work to dissolve your borax in a small amount of methyl alcohol, then add denatured, to get the solubility and minimize the toxicity?
Well, Noel, I apologize - it’s not the first time I’ve written under
somebody’s quote and they took it personally, when it was intended
as a public post - this being a public forum.
The easy answer is no, probably not. If you dissolve paraffin in
gasoline, and then try to put that into water, neither will dissolve
or mix with the water. Same here, most likely. Speaking
theoretically, it could betested. There are some situations where a
“bridge” solvent can be used as you suggest, but I doubt this is one
of them. Stamping out chemical paranoia is one of my little crusades
Just look at the age range of the tea partiers and others trying to ignore the science of climate change.
I don’t know anyone who is “trying to ignore the science of climate
change.” I do know a lot of people who are highly skeptical about
primarily human-caused global warming, especially after looking at
some of the popular bad science that’s been used for propaganda in
recent years. People like Al Gore harm the cause in the long run.
Not to mention researchers who fudge the numbers.
BTW, “tea partiers” seem to concentrate on lowering taxes and
minimizing government. I haven’t seen any climate change partys.
Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ
Regarding John’s post about trying to stamp out chemical paranoia,
this has often been my aim as well. Onr of the ongoing problems is
when people mix up commercial names with chemical names.
To determine what if any risk is involved means knowing the chemical
composition of what you are using and the term "denatured alcohol"
reminds me of some of the go around we had a few years ago over
ether…
WHAT KIND!!
Denatured alcohol unless you have the specific ingredient list from
a manufacturer does not supply enough to determine what
if any hazards do exist. As are the example links I gave the term
"Denatured alcohol" Varies from country to country and even within
one country the term can mean many different things.
In some cases it is safe enough to use with minimal ventilation and
in other cases it is not. Also one must make a difference between a
hobbyist who may get a 3 minute a week exposure as they do one joint
and a production shop… and everyone in between. No one answer fits
everyone. If you are really concerned, take a basic course ion
Industrial hygiene at a community college and learn how to interpret
the MSDS and what the various terms mean
Kay
What one might notice, though, is that a certain higher percentage (than the general population) of the folks who gravitate to careers in the arts, might also have done less well, or not been attracted to the sciences. The percentage of jewelers who've never taken Chemistry classes is no doubt higher than the percentage of engineers, and this likely holds true for any age group you might choose.
In my case my late mother, 1917-2003, was a chemist. One of the
very, very few female industrial chemists of her generation. She was
the first woman in the Chem. dept.at LSU in the 30s. She was 15 year
old. She was a great role model for me as I was the first “chick
jeweler” in my union. My late father, 1909-1982, was an artist. I had
the perfect upbringing to make me a Goldsmith.
When my sweetie Tim and I counsel young folks about jewelry careers,
we ALWAYS emphasise the importance of a strong science and math
background. We also tell them to get a good education in business.
Both are so important for a jewelry career.
I tell our students that art is easy. Making a living at it, while
not blowing the lab up? Mmmmm, not so much.
Have fun and make lots of jewelry.
Jo Haemer
www.timothywgreen.com
More info than you probably ever wanted to know about Denatured
alcohol…
The rest of Syds sites are a very interesting read. And despite his
using really nasty stuff and working in a tough job the old one got
him, too many years.
jeffD
Demand Designs
Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing
http://www.gmavt.net/~jdemand
Yes they are toxic, so another reason not to leave the jar open except when actually dipping the work in it.
I cover mine to prevent evaporation and to avoid setting it afire,
setting afire being the primary danger in my humble opinion.
Inhalation of fumes is relatively minor in my view compared to the
fire danger.
Mike DeBurgh, GJG
Alliance, OH
Or the amazing percentage of the worlds population that still gives credence to and believes in Astrology, while viewing with bewilderment and suspicion any attempt to explain current understandings of physics or cosmology.
Thank you Mr Rowe for Marking the boundaries of your ignorance. Is
this statement to mean that Astrology is a hokey science believed by
ignorant fools? You sound like an intelligent person. I hope you
wouldn’t stick your neck out and comment on something you are NOT
knowledgeable about.
Yours truly, Ray Brown
I cover mine to prevent evaporation and to avoid setting it afire, setting afire being the primary danger in my humble opinion. Inhalation of fumes is relatively minor in my view compared to the fire danger.
Yep, I agree. As long as you don’t use your fingers to dip the work
in the alcohol the contact will be relatively low. If you have good
ventilation there is virtually no problem with using methanol as
long as you are aware of the hazard and take precautions to avoid
body contact with it.
James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts
I have been very impressed with Firescoff as a non-flammable,
excellent replacement for the boric acid and alcohol mixture. I have
seen/heard of some truly horrendous accidents with the flammable
mixture.
best
charles
I have been very impressed with Firescoff as a non-flammable, excellent replacement for the boric acid and alcohol mixture. I have seen/heard of some truly horrendous accidents with the flammable mixture.
I’m sure there have been some. Of course there have also been some
“truly horrendous accidents” with automobiles, polishing wheels, and
a host of other things that make our jobs and lives easier. Just
because accidents happen with certain tools and products is no reason
to stop using them and every reason to use them more carefully.
Thank you Mr Rowe for Marking the boundaries of your ignorance.
You’re very welcome.
Is this statement to mean that Astrology is a hokey science believed by ignorant fools?
I didn’t say that. I simply compared the number of people who
believe in astrology, which derives from ancient beliefs about the
structure of the universe that are easily and demonstrably
disprooved, to the number of people who understand what modern
science has to say about that structure of the universe. This is not
about being ignorant or a fool. it has more to say about how
effective modern science education is. Whether you wish to believe
in astrology or not, is up to you. I don’t judge that. But if you
also don’t understand what modern science also can show you, then
you’re missing out, and that, I’d say, would be a shame.
You sound like an intelligent person. I hope you wouldn't stick your neck out and comment on something you are NOT knowledgeable about.
I try not to. I didn’t in this case. Don’t presume to know what I do
or do not know on the subject. Obviously, we disagree on the validity
of astrology. Fine. You have every right to believe it if you wish,
and find it useful. I know a number of intellegent and often highly
creative people who agree with you. Many are artists, or musicians,
or writers, or in business, or whatever. But I can’t say I know a
single one who also happens to be a scientist, or an astronomer, or
chemist, or physicist. And I know a fair number of those types of
people too. I’m sure there are such folks out there. But I’d say
perhaps not so many… But I’ve been wrong before. Maybe I am this
time.
peace, dude.
Peter Rowe
I have been very impressed with Firescoff as a non-flammable, excellent replacement for the boric acid and alcohol mixture. I have seen/heard of some truly horrendous accidents with the flammable mixture.
Yes, the stuff works quite well. Slower to apply, however (similar
to prips flux) It’s just too bad the stuff costs about a bazillion
times as much as boric acid and alcohol. I’d use it too if I had an
endless supply of either money of first born children I could sell.
(How much IS a bazillion, anyway? )
Peter Rowe