Well stocked photo supply shops should also have it in the B&W
chemical section. As I remember (difficult sometimes these days…)
it is a “fixer” in B&W negative and photo development, not a
developer, , either way it should be available in photo shops…
john dach
Sodium thiosulfate is use a s a fixer in photography. If you use it
as a developer It will remove all the undeveloped silver in the
emulsion and leave the film blank. This, of course, is the purpose of
a fixer to remove the undeveloped silver once the silver image is
developed.
Jen
I was going to use gun bluing solution to darken a stainless steel bracelet, but when I saw selenium on the label, I thought better of it.
Linda, I use a darkener for brass, bronze, and copper (Jax Black)
which contains selenious acid. I have used it for years because it
works very well. I do not believe it to be harmful to health, partly
because I rub most of it off (leaving some in the recesses of the
designs) with a slurry of pumice and water.
As Wikipedia says,
Selenium salts are toxic in large amounts, but trace amounts are necessary for cellular function in many organisms, including all animals.
My daily vitamin pills have a small amount of selenium in them.
Selenium and its compounds, like all the other nasty chemicals which
jewelers use, have to be used carefully. If anyone has some evidence
that the amount of selenious acid in Jax Black is particularly
dangerous, I’d like to know about it. I’ve been using the same
half-cup of Jax Black for about a year of light use (it lasts a long
time – I keep the amount I’m using in one of those Tupperware
pickle-lifters; they’re great!).
Fan of selenious acid for patinas!
Judy Bjorkman
I use LOS with ammonia and salt - this darkens the silver to a gun
metal gray.
Gloria Lenon
Hello Carol,
I really like the sulfur in gel form. Rio carries it, and there must
be other sources. In the jar it is very stable. I think mine is a
couple years old. You can mix the solution as strong as you want,
but temperature is more important. I ‘nuke’ the water to heat it,
and add a few drops of the gel. Mix, then submerge the silver in the
solution and watch it for the color I want.
It’s still LOS, but seems less obnoxious than the chunks.
Judy in Kansas, who has gotten so many tips from others on thhis
forum. thanks!!
If anyone has some evidence that the amount of selenious acid in Jax Black is particularly dangerous, I'd like to know about it.
Selenious acid is selenium dioxide dissolved in water. So yes it is
quite toxic. SELENIUM (PIM 483)
James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts
Hello, I looked at msds for Griffith silver black
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep801e [PDF file]
It is a mixture of hydrochloric acid and tellurium dioxide.
Melissa Stenstrom
There used to be a silver and gold darkening agent called Win-Ox
It’s still being made, and is sold by Indian Jewelers Supply. It’s
what I’ve been using the past few years.
Allan
Another source of sodium thiosulfate is swimming pool supply stores.
As for the toxicity of selenium, think… The MSDS are worst case
scenrios unless you understand their verbage. First none of us are
going to drink or snort selenium. Next the skin blood barrier will
pick up minute amounts, but it is far less than the toxic levels. I
would worry if we were up to our elbows all day long in the
solutions. I use to be accused of being an old fart goth for the
black fingernails I had from selenium toning prints in a (wet)
darkroom. Ladies if you really want to have a scare, read the
ingredients in hair coloring. Yes selenium is important to our body
to function. The pancreas in particular needs it.
Today we are so use to packaged and refined food stuffs, that we are
lacking ever more in basic trace minerals. The top of that list is
selenium. For what we as jewelers do, and the amount of contact if
we are not wearing gloves to selenium in solution, is not enough to
get worried over. If you get a nice set of black fingernails, just
plead to being in your second childhood.
Aggie, In her old age fartage!
Judith what is the Gel called? I am interested in trying an oxidized
finish on a necklace I am working on. Do you have any tips on how to
use the it safely? I am sorry if you have already mentioned how you
use it, I have kind of jumped into this thread mid-way.
Thanks,
Tina, Ireland
For what we as jewelers do, and the amount of contact if we are not wearing gloves to selenium in solution, is not enough to get worried over.
It is a mutagen as well as a toxin, if you want to poison your self
go for it. If you are considering having kids you may want to think
a bit more about using it. A MSDS is not a worst case scenario
document, if written properly it is a guide on how to safely work
with a given chemical.
When I hear people say that they have used something for years with
no ill effects it reminds me of the folks who say the folks who say
the same thing about smoking tobacco. Smoking doesn’t guarantee that
you will get cancer it just greatly ups the chances. Ignoring health
warnings in an MSDS doesn’t guarantee you will suffer the problems
cited in the MSDS it just greatly ups the chances.
Yes one can go overboard with the health and safety stuff but if you
are going to ignore it do so with some knowledge of what you are
doing and what chances you are taking.
James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts
First off I’m not trying to start a fight. What I want to do is
educate people there is a difference between fear and caution.
Please orchid people put this link in the proper format
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep801p [PDF file]
Please read the MSDS. Then as a professor of mine pointed out when
we all got scared over some chemicals we were working with, said.
Know what strengths they are talking about. Know what organism was
tested. Know how the chemical was introduced to that organism.
This MSDS, and all were basically the exact same thing, has the
exposures separated by two forms. Acute and overexposure. acute would
be anything from pure form to diluted and for a brief time period.
Overexposure is for a prolong period with a more pure form. Over
exposure is also in the case of all MSDS’s comes out to if you drank
the substance, snorted the pure form, or got bathed for quite a while
in the chemical.
Given how these sheets are often interpretted, it is easy to get
scared.
Selenium that we use in metal working is a diluted form. It is in
solution so we are not really going to be breathing it. I personally
may look like a dying fish, but I have yet to reopen the pharengeal
(sp) gill slits I was born with, I’m not breathing the liquid. Next
is the ingesting it.
Personally the expanse of my posterior grew from eating things much
better tasting and looking than selenium. But I can say that weekly I
do ingest a pill of selenium for my health (who’d a thunk it). As to
skin exposure, it is an irritant to sensitive people. There are
people who are sensitive to water. After all water is a horrible
solvent, just ask Dana Point California who banned Di Hydro Monoxide
out of fear of the solvent. The amount of exposure you will get from
selenium in the form we use it, is going to be very slight on the
skin. If someone develops itching and a rash, wear gloves. If not,
you are not going to die from what we as jewelers are exposed to.
As far as being called a mutagen it does not go into any details on
the MSDS I have access to right now. Some on line call it a mutagen,
and others don’t mention it. My MSDS book is in sotrage in Utah. But
it is nice to see that although it is called a carcinogen in some
states (California), it is not listed as one by the government. It
also lists a lot of possible damage to different parts of our body,
but again read under what category it is listed. It is listed under
the overexposure section.
To sum up again, we as jewelers need not worry about the amounts of
selenium we are exposed to for the period of time we handle it.
There are also those of us who take selenium supplements because we
have low levels.
The amounts they gave the rats in the studies they conducted smack
of the 60’s experiments and the amounts they gave rats of artificial
sweeteners back then. Those amounts on a lab rat, are huge. We are
not lab rats.
Yes be cautious. We don’t need black fingernails from the staining.
We don’t need our clothes stained. Back when I tried to fight my
white hair, I loved having my head bathed in a partial solution of
selenium.
Aggie wishing she didn’t need a bottle for red hair
We are talking about selenium dioxide not pure selenium, selenium
dioxide is the blackening agent in these formulas. So if you are
going to look up MSDS for possible dangers then you should look up
the right chemical.
See section 11 on this MSDS for reference to human reproductive
damage http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep801q
And in section 3 in this one http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep801r
or this one
Pure metals are often not real toxic in that they are not
bioavailable but once you process them to make a salt or other
compound it is a very different situation. For example copper metal
is not real dangerous, copper acetate will kill you.
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/ep801s
James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts
James,
I’ll agree with you that Selenium Dioxide in the "FORM discussed in
the MSDS sheet you site is hazardous. What is that form A SOLID OR
CRYSTAL.
It is a pure form of the substance. Again what we are dealing with
when we use it is a dilute form mixed in with other agents. Take a
substance in solid form that is a salt like lye, and it will burn
your skin. The damage it would do if you ingested it would be
horrible. Snorting it would be the last thing you would be doing.
Which is about what is being talked about on the MSDS. Now would you
be afraid of soap? The sponification to make soap takes sodium
hydroxide. The same lye that you would not use in the pure form.
All the statements about reproductive problems again read it and see
it says it MAY cause the problems, with the pure form ingested
inhaled or smeared on your skin. What we as jewelers are using is a
very diluted form, not being ingested or inhaled. Would you bathe in
acid? Ever go swimming in a swimming pool? Acid is added to control
the PH levels.
Understand fully what we should be cautious of. How many times have
any of us mixed up pickle and after it is mixed, gotten it on our
skin? Did we die? Did we have to be rushed to a hospital and be
treated? If like me, I calmly rinse it off and go about my day. Do
any of use the solution of dilute selenium all day every day?
Granted we should know about the chemicals we use. We should also
learn how to fully understand things like the MSDS sheets which are
if not carefully read, can scare the crap out of you. What form is
the chemical being used in? How much of the chemical is being used?
What is it being used on? How is it being tested? Question you should
keep in mind when reading the MSDS. Caution not fear. BTW red hair
coloringis made with selenium dioxide. Maybe that is why I’m not
right in the head.
Aggie Who just got the offer of employment of a lifetime! Not
jewelry related
Hello Tina,
I’m not near my workspace to get the jar and read the label. Howevr,
if you Google liver of sulfur gel, you should get details. or you
could go to the Rio Grande website and search there. I bought mine
from Rio about two years ago.
The gel is really simple to use. I heat some tap water in the
microwave. Using a wooden chopstick, I dip the end into the gel and
stir it into the hot water. Immerse the silver and watch. Remove
when the depth of color is reached, and rinse in cool water. Repeat
as desired.
Once stirred into water, the solution is good for a few hours. The
more metal patinaed, the less effective the solution becomes.
Temperature makes a difference too - hotter means faster. When the
solution loses effectiveness, mix up more. Rio’s website may have a
technical paper on using the LOS gel.
Hope this answers the question, Judy in Kansas, where a blizzard is’a
commin’ and everyone should stay inside!
The sponification to make soap takes sodium hydroxide.
Let’s not even think about that deadly combination of sodium
hydroxide and hydrochloric acid called table salt.
Al Balmer
Pine City, NY
Let's not even think about that deadly combination of sodium hydroxide and hydrochloric acid called table salt.
I prefer sodium chloride 
CIA
Al
Sodium hydroxide is lye, and lye is sodium hydroxide. Go check out
red devil lye in the grocery stores. I use to help my mom make home
made laundry soap. I know this very very well right down to the use
of glass enamel and wooden utensils to do it with, not metal. BTW I
also growing up on a farm in Nebraska learned how to pluck singe,
gut and have a chicken ready to eat on the table within two hours
after my Mom not me would chop it’s head off.
Aggie the throwback to times past
Oh one more thing Al
HCL + NaCl = H2O + NaCl or for those who have not taken chemistry.
Hydrochloric acid and sodium hydroxide in combination turn into
water and table salt type salt. Now lets talk about potassium tri
iodide and putting little spots of that wet on sidewalks and watching
people walk on the dry product.
We used to make NI3 in chem class in my high school days. Nice
little bang and lovely puffs of purple smoke.