Bezel settings inconsistent results

Hi Cynthia, the soldering tips that you sent me are INVALUABLE -
printed and hanging in my workshop. The soldering of Argentium is
getting so much better, I no longer dread trying. My results are
improving, and less ruined, melted pieces - I’m thrilled! I’m
staying the course, happy with Argentium as my metal of choice. To
all: Some tips/advice from my posts that have worked really well for
a newbie like me: using less flux; heating the flux and then placing
the solder papillons; working on one section at a time; waving the
flame (heat then off, heat then off); placing the papillon against
the inside of the bezel strip, touching the back plate and the bezel
at the same time; using Easy solder only. Will pickup some steel
T-pins, though I avoid my solderite board usually, as it heating it
seems to set off my near by smoke detector! I would imagine that I
would still try to solder, with the bezel setting down on the
surface, band resting on top? If I still have visible seams, on items
like 20 ga rings (despite trying to file and buff the seam), is it
bec my seam isn’t a good enough fit? Too much solder? Insufficient
solder?

Thanks!
Ros

Hi Ros,

I am so pleased to hear that the soldering tips handout was helpful!
(The handout is under FAQ on my website.) What soldering board are
you using? If your smoke detector is being set off, it sounds like
you need to set up some ventilation! Ventilation can be as simple as
putting a fan in a nearby window, blowing OUT, when you solder.

The first few times you heat a solderite board, it does emit fumes.
After a while, that stops. You might like using a fire brick.

Make sure the pins are steel. I usually buy them from Allcraft.
Sometimes you can find them at sewing stores. If you’re not sure
what the material is, put it on the soldering board and heat it until
it glows red-hot. If the pins survive that, they should be okay for
soldering. AND, the black oxide coating helps prevent the pins from
getting soldered to the silver.

Yes, to use pins, you set up as you would normally, and use the pins
to make sure nothing moves during the soldering operation.

If the seams are too visible, they probably should fit better. Also,
if you are now successfully soldering without melting things, try
medium solder, which has better color. By the way, the bits of solder
are called pallions. (Papillon is French for butterfly—also the
name of a dog breed with lovely, large ears.)

Congratulations on your improved soldering skills!
Best wishes,
Cynthia

Thank you, Cynthia, for correcting me! I had a good laugh, finding
out that the little squares of solder are NOT called papillons, but
rather pallions (we speak French in our house, and to me, it seemed
very fitting that those little pieces of solder were called
butterflies as they tend to fly off as soon as I came near them with
my torch - ha!) I like using my hard charcoal blocks (not the soft
ones that I mistakenly bought this summer, that sparked and crackled
like a camp fire), though I do have a solderite board (yes, I need
better ventilation!) and a not-liked silquar board. Two more
questions about Argentium silver solder:- I’ve managed to burn holes
(as opposed to melt edges) in Argentium with the solder - am I
imagining things? Usually happens when I am trying to melt off
excess solder.- any suggestions for brightening the solder? I find
that the Argentium is happy with a quick soak in a pickle, but that
the solder seems to stay stubbornly dark. One piece, I couldn’t get
to the solder, to buff or polish and it was annoying to see the
solder, a dark grey/black.

Thanks!
Ros

Leonid thanks. I don’t understand solidus. You mean you can get it
close to melting and it’s properties change on cooling??? I’ve never
observed that. What am I missing? I don’t cast so try to stay under
melting :slight_smile:

What is the deal with all these new silver alloys anyway? Seems to
me it would be easier to learn to control the flame and use Prips or
something like that? Long term are they better for the customer?

I looked though the links, but my opinion have not changed. 

Hi, I appreciate that you took a bit of time to read a little. It
reminds me, however, that most of us humans have a tendency to read
and interpret in a way that supports what we already
believe.

it means no hard solder should be used. 

Actually, it means that care must be used with hard solder. As you
note, the temperature is very close to the melting point of AS. The
solders are really sort of mis-named; AS Hard should really be
called AS IT, or AS SuperHard; AS Medium should really be AS Hard,
etc. In any case, it is not necessary to use hard solder, usually,
with Argentium, because of the low conduction of heat. There is
little problem with a previous joint re-melting when doing a
subsequent soldering. Because of this, we are able to do multiple
solderings with medium or easy solder (which should really be
considered to be hard and medium). The color of the AS solders is
quite white, because germanium whitens alloys.

Re: work hardening

The fact is that Argentium Silver can be pushed further before it
needs to be annealed. Tests have shown this, but what is more
important to me is what I know from my hands and hammers. My work is
mostly formed—I know how much further I can push AS than SS when
forming or forging or stretching. The way that the metal behaves is
far more important than numbers and statistics, to me.

Re: questions, problems, beginners, etc.

I think that there were a lot of questions and complaints about
Argentium when it first came out, because people did not realize that
with different alloys come different working properties. (Beginners,
having no preconceptions, actually learn to work with AS more
easily.) As people learn what is different, they don’t write in to
say, “All is well”. They are simply doing their work, and then
writing when there is a problem. Most posts are about problems-with
AS, SS, PMC, 14KYG, 18KYG, copper, brass, steel----that’s what
Orchid is about! Hurray for Orchid! Have you donated this year? (I
have.)

At this point, I’m done typing about this topic. I am very pleased
that the original poster has resolved many of her soldering problems
(many of which were simply about being a beginner, and only some of
which were about using AS), and is now much more successfully
soldering bezels. In fact, she sent me a photo of a rose she was
able to create, after receiving my tips. I’m so pleased that I have
(with her permission, of course) posted the image on my blog.

Cindy

SOLIDUS is highest temperature where metal is solid. Cross this
line and piece is destroyed. It may look almost the same, but high
degree of polishing no longer possible, low resistance to
deformation, and a lot of other problems. 

I haven’t much experience of fusing Argentium, but perhaps somebody
here who does can comment on whether or not they notice any
problems. I haven’t. (Obviously fusing Argentium involves heating it
into the plastic range).

HEAT CAPACITY measured in how many KJ (kilo joules ) takes to
raise temperature of 1 kilogram of metal by 1 degree of Celsius.
Characteristic is important because the higher heat capacity is,
the greater temperature control is possible. Sterling - 0.2448,
Argentium - 0.2439 The difference looks deceptively small. But if
one considers that we work with pieces weighing grams, as opposed
to kilograms, the difference is significant. It makes possibility
crossing over solidus line even more likely. 

I don’t follow this: as you reduce the mass of the object being
worked, the difference in the heat capacity of the work should be
reduced by the same proportion. Do you notice the difference in heat
capacity of a 1g piece of silver and one that weighs 4 milligrams
less?

The difference in thermal conductivity of the silver is far greater
and far more significant - and would have much the same effect,
effectively making the piece seem to have a lower heat capacity as
you are only heating a smaller part of it. Personally, I see this as
an useful characteristic; I guess it could either help or hinder
depending on what you were making.

Ductility and Work Hardening: Fully annealed sterling hardness -
66 to 76 DPH ( Vickers ), Argentium - 50 to 70 DPH Fully annealed
argentium is softer, but look what happens when we start working
it. 1/4 work hardened sterling - 78 to 88 DPH, while Argentium
jumps to 90 to 105 1/2 work hardened sterling - 90 to 100 DPH,
while Argentium is at 106 to 120 3/4 work hardened sterling 102 to
114 DPH, while Argentium is 121 to 135 and at full sterling is 116
to 130, and Argentium 136 to 148. 
These numbers mean that Argentium requires annealing two times as
often as sterling. Margin of error in bending and forming is
shrinking. Forging times grows exponentially, and so on. This
property is the most troublesome in setting. Thin bezels reach 3/4
to ful hardness surprisingly fast. It means that if bezel is not
closed on first try, you are screwed, and setting any king of
angular stone becomes very problematic. 

No, what these numbers actually mean is that Argentium can be
hardened to a greater extent than ordinary Sterling. It doesn’t
necessarily say anything about the degree of deformation that can
take place before you reach the end-point of work-hardening and have
to anneal again. And this is greater for Argentium than for Sterling.
Though, as the Argentium ultimately hardens more than the Sterling,
if you have lots of experience with Sterling you may presumably feel
that you’ve reached this limit before you actually have.

Most of what I do in silver (horn mouthpieces) involves forming
silver round a mandrel and when I switched to Argentium early on, the
process did become noticeably easier.

Have a look at the Erichson cupping test and example candlesticks in
the following link to see how much more deformable Argentium is than
Sterling:

http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/r

Sterling - 1450 F, Argentium - 1410 F. Considering that Argentium
hard solder flows at 1450 F - it mean no hard solder should be
used. Argentium medium solder flows at 1378 F, only 32 degrees
below solidus. 

I have heard it suggested that Argentium ‘medium’ solder should
actually have been called ‘hard’ and that the ‘hard’ solder should
have been called ‘extra hard’. And so on. I tend to go by this rule
when choosing solders for my hobby (musical instrument parts).

I was quite jumpy about using medium solder the first time, as I was
soldering 0.3-0.5mm sheet edge to edge to make what was effectively
20mm diameter seamed tubing - I was scared of melting the edges of
the sheet. It does sometimes slump slightly, but in my experience you
have to be quite heavy-handed to actually melt it. After all, the
melting range of Argentium is slightly wider than for Sterling.

Argentium is a different alloy from Sterling, and as such working
with it is noticeably different - in many ways easier, and in some
ways harder. However most of your theoretical based concerns are
unfounded. With my scientist hat on, when theory and observation
don’t match up, I tend to argue for changing the theory - or at least
re-examining my understanding of it.

Kit

Leonid thanks. I don't understand solidus. You mean you can get it
close to melting and it's properties change on cooling??? 

Yes, if we get close enough.

Any alloy has solidus and liquidus points. Liquidus is when alloy is
liquid ( transition from solid to liquid is complete ) Solidus is the
highest temperature, at which alloy is solid. There is a zone between
these to points where alloy is partially solid and partially liquid,
similarly to when snow mixed with water at 32 F.

This happens because components of an alloy have limited
inter-solubility. Sterling silver, for example, is made of silver
crystals with a little bit of copper dissolved ( alpha crystals )
and copper crystals with a little bit of silver dissolved ( beta
crystals ).

If we bring temperature of an item above solidus point, alloy enters
this mushy state. Since we never take it to liquidus point, the
crystalline structure upon cooling is like a frozen mush. To
understand what happens let’s go to snow and water example. If we
take that mixture of snow and water and put in freezer. It will
solidify but it will not be as strong as block of ice made by
freezing clean water.

In practice it manifests by sagged appearance, but could have no
external signs as well. In this case we know about it because items
becomes impossible to polish, or stones start falling out after a
little wear. Metal simply looses it’s backbone and sooner or later
we’ll know about it.

Leonid Surpin

No, what these numbers actually mean is that Argentium can be
hardened to a greater extent than ordinary Sterling. 

Except it is not necessarily able to be hardened to a greater extent
than standard sterling. From data in Mark Grimwade’s “Introduction
to Precious Metals” Grimwade lists standard sterling in the aged
state is 120-140 HV, Argentium is 100-120 HV. Cold worked standard
sterling hardens to 140-180 HV and Argentium hardens to 150-160 HV.
You can find different numbers in Peter Johns (the inventor of
Argentium) paper presented to the Santa Fe Symposium in 1997 that
shows Argentium having higher hardness numbers than standard
sterling. You can also find in Dr. Jorg Fischer-Buhner’s paper
“Hardening Possibilities of Sterling Silver Alloys” that standard
sterling can be age hardened to 150 HV. All these test results are
correct for the samples that were tested by the researchers who did
the tests. So why so much variation in results? These mechanical
tests for hardness and tensile strength don’t really generate
absolute numbers like say a melting point test would, the test
results are very dependent on how the metal is processed, where on
the sample it is tested, the testing machines, the operators and
other factors so multiple tests are typically run and the results
are generally averaged to try to reduce the variation in test
results. Another thing to remember is these tests are not really run
in an exhaustive fashion, there is generally a very limited budget
and time constraints (these are not government funded unlimited
budget research projects) so you take your measurements and and
report the data you record.

The reality is that the differences in the hardness numbers between
the alloys are not really all that great and unless you are making
engineering products the difference between 140HV and 150 HV is
unlikely to seriously effect your jewelry. It is also unlikely you
will be able to get these maximum hardness values in your items as
most jewelers don’t treat their items like laboratory samples and
certainly don’t send them out for hardness tests to verify their
process ( a typical cost for a lab to run a set of 10 Vickers
hardness sample points and report on the values is around $200) so
unless you have a friend at a lab who can do it for free most of us
will not bother.

Arguing about the relative hardness of one versus the other is most
likely pointless. They both can be age hardened to a similar point
and work hardened to a similar point. If Argentium works for you,
use it. If you prefer standard sterling, use it.

Jim

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

What is the deal with all these new silver alloys anyway? Seems to
me it would be easier to learn to control the flame and use Prips
or something like that? Long term are they better for the customer? 

That was the point of AS to begin with, if I know what I think I
know, that it is better for the customer because of reduced problems
with tarnishing. As it turns out, we are the lucky ones who get to
work with it.

Argentium is a different alloy from Sterling, and as such working
with it is noticeably different - in many ways easier, and in some
ways harder. However most of your theoretical based concerns are
unfounded. 

I am glad it’s working out for you. The point that is missed here is
that Argentium positive properties benefiting casters, and not
fabricators. Could it be overcome ? Absolutely! but it does not make
it better alloy for fabrication than sterling.

When I release my DVD “Etermity Ring”, I start getting emails that
people cannot complete the ring. When they get to soldering upper and
lower parts together, the thing either collapses, or even if it
survives the soldering, it looked “singed”. Each and every time they
tried making it from Argentium. When they switched to Sterling,
things became more controllable, and some succeeded to a degree.

Theoretical properties sometimes do not matter, and sometimes they
do. It is all depends on design requirements and how far one has to
push.

Leonid Surpin

I am glad it's working out for you. The point that is missed here
is that Argentium positive properties benefiting casters, 

I beg to differ, Leonid. Now, for the record, I personally prefer
standard sterling silver, in part because I often like to use
patinas/blackened surfaces, and standard sterling silver does this
better, and frankly, I’m used to it, not to mention I’ve already got
several gallons of Prips flux sitting on the shelf, and already have
quite enough standard silver stock to keep me busy for a number of
years. So no big reason to spend a bunch of money on new Argentium
stock.

But Argentium does offer positive benefits for more than just the
casters. It also offers major benefits for fabricated work, and for
many of the same reasons.

While it’s well known how to avoid issues with fire stain on
sterling, the needed care in flux coating the metal prior to any
heating for annealing or soldering, is time consuming, and sometimes
just plain annoying to have to repeatedly do. With Argentium, the
fact that it doesn’t form a penetrating deep fire stain layer means
that if you wish to simply not bother fire coating the metal, the
oxide that does form, simply pickles off or easily buffs off, so it
can be a time and effort saving metal. Even if one is not simply not
bothering to fire coat the metal, one does not need to be as thorough
or careful, nor does one need to bother with things like sprayed on
Prips flux or the like. For projects that require a lot of annealing
or soldering operations, this can be significant.

And beyond simply not having to worry about fire stain in working,
perhaps the big benefit is that it’s also slower to tarnish or
oxidize after it’s been made, so the customer will not have to clean
the piece as often. For some designs, where a resistance to
tarnishing is important to the final work, that can be very
significant to one’s choosing to use Argentium over standard
sterling silver.

And just in an observational note, While I work more in gold and
platinum, so differences in the behavior of silver alloys don’t
affect my working day as much, when someone like Cynthia Eid, who’s
one of the more recognized and aqcomplished and skilled silversmiths
I know (and I’ve known quite a few rather well known and good ones
over the years) tells me that Argentium is worth it’s benefits, well,
I pay attention. This isn’t a metal that’s only good because it’s
easier for beginners or folks not wanting to bother with avoiding
fire stain. It’s good enough to get the attention and endorsement
from a number of highly skilled professional silversmiths and
artists, who are quite skilled enough already to use either alloy
with success and skill, yet choose Argentium for at least some of
their work. Endorsements like that are worth noting.

Peter Rowe

"When I release my DVD "Etermity Ring", I start getting emails
that people cannot complete the ring. When they get to soldering
upper and lower parts together, the thing either collapses,
or...."... "Each and every time they tried making it from
Argentium." 

So I had company, eh? : ) [chuckle]

Argentium is definitely not the best choice for some things. At
least for those of us still working on their torch control.

Neil A.

it is better for the customer because of reduced problems with
tarnishing 

Tarnishing is not a problem! It is a reminder to client that it is
time to clean jewellery.

Leonid Surpin

I fuse all the time while making chain links with Argentium. It fuses
so easily and polishes wonderfully. Recently, when working with clean
wire, I have been skipping using flux-it still fuses well and
completely with no ill effects, as it does not scale when heated.
It’s behaves a bit like 22K gold. I also cast and form Argentium
completely by hand, making sheet and drawing wire for the rings and
settings that I make. I now prefer it over regular sterling silver
any day for many so many reasons. Since I was forewarned about
Argentium behaving uniquely, I read the advice available on the
Argentium.com site and have no real transition problems.

Joris

When I release my DVD "Etermity Ring", I start getting emails that
people cannot complete the ring. 

As I recall that ring is not eminently suitable for silver.

It is all depends on design requirements 

And I think that design requires 18K or plat. Not just for
durability but for feasability too… Which brings up a Q, how’s it
going with the orchidian who was trying to cadcam that design?

Argentium is definitely not the best choice for some things. At
least for those of us still working on their torch control. 

Whenever a subject comes up of what is better or not, the two camps
form and the battle begins. What needs to be understood is that in
Goldsmithing there are not absolutes. It is possible to use imperfect
tools and materials and obtain good results. But there are projects
which require to extract absolutely everything from metal in order to
succeed. It is in those cases the differences begin to matter. So all
such discussion should be taken as such.

Leonid Surpin

As I recall that ring is not eminently suitable for silver. 

Absolutely true! The ring meant to teach few things, like forming,
precision piercing and been able to solder without destroying previous
efforts. By no means it should ever be worn, unless it is 18k or
platinum.

Leonid Surpin

And beyond simply not having to worry about fire stain in working,
perhaps the big benefit is that it's also slower to tarnish or
oxidize after it's been made, so the customer will not have to
clean the piece as often. For some designs, where a resistance to
tarnishing is important to the final work, that can be very
significant to one's choosing to use Argentium over standard
sterling silver. 

This is all very nice but it does not address fabrication problems I
described in previous posting.

Firescale is not the issue for me, nor it should be for anybody.
Sterling has been around for several hundred years.

Tarnishing is not the issue either. First there is not much sulfur in
the air nowadays, so it takes several months for it to be noticed.
Second, I do not use sterling for for jewellery. When I do, I add a
bit of platinum. Much better way to prevent tarnishing and it
actually improves fabrication properties.

Main advantages that Argentium offers is low viscosity and it easier
to melt and to cast - none of each I care about, so we are going to
agree to disagree.

Leonid Surpin

It's good enough to get the attention and endorsement from a number
of highly skilled professional silversmiths and artists, 

Another eternal thread, eh? I’ve never worked with argentium as I
avoid silver like the plague it is ;} I have worked in copper,
bronze, brass, nickel silver, 6 or 8 types of steels, titanium,
lead, tin, type metal, hundreds of pounds of sterling silver, 10kt
yellow and white gold, 14kt - about 20 alloys, ditto for 18kt, 22kt
and 24kt and 3 or 4 alloys of platinum (all of which besides 90/10
are junk). Plus a hundred kinds of wood and 500 kinds of stone and
fabric and plastics and who remembers what all else?

The only point being that each and every material has it’s own
properties, and those properties must be learned and understood if
there’s any hope of success in working with them. Argentium is no
different, and talking about it without actually working it and
getting it’s “feel” is pretty ridiculous.

Hi Peter,

Interestingly, though Argentium Silver is highly tarnish resistant
(No silver can be 100% tarnish proof) it is not at all difficult to
patina/oxidize. It might take a slightly stronger solution, or a
little bit longer, but the difference is not much. I have used all
the usual commercial solutions, as well as liver of sulfur.

Cindy