Argentium soldering questions

I went to turn in my scrap at a local refiner, however, and all the
Argentium was rejected, because it was "crap". Their words, not
mine. Wondering if others are finding the same thing? 

Kerry, I haven’t had an issue with it, the places I’ve used don’t
even discriminate between traditional and Argentium - if it’s
sterling, it’s 92.5 silver - the rest they don’t care about. Did your
refiner assay it, or reject it based on your description? Perhaps
they misunderstood the product. Try NTR Metals or Rio Grande.

Blessings,
Sam Kaffine
www.sterlingbliss.com

The statement concerning Tiffany’s possibly plating to cover
firescale…I am really good friends with one of their master
chasers. I asked her about that very thing and her response was that
they have a spraying area and completely cover the piece VERY well. I
was also trained to spray the work that way as I started my training
by working in a manufacturing studio. I still do that when working
with sterling and find it quite refreshing while working with AS not
to have to spray the whole piece.

I rarely ever have fireacale…and now I never have it as I work
only in argentium.

My friend also said at Tiffany’s, they also work with anti-firescale
alloys.

~Susan Thornton

I want to say “Thank You” to everyone for answering my questions on
and off-line, and even sharing more info I did not think to ask about
in my As post.

As I said in my post, I have gotten very good at heat control in my
soldering & fusing, etc., so the firescale issue is not as huge as
it was, but as many people have posted here, it can still rear its
ugly head every now & then.

The “heat hardening” and low tarnish properties of As are what I am
so very excited about, and I will be ordering some As and medium
solder with my next batch of sterling sheet. I tend to use only hard
solder on everything sterling, and I still have the very first sheets
of medium & easy solders that I bought YEARS ago, mostly untouched.
So I think I won’t need to purchase a full range of solders, as I
will probably will never use them.

One last question please, what stamp should I use to mark the metal?
Do I understand correctly that some As has a slightly higher silver
content than .925. Would someone care to share which alloy percentage
they use? I mark all of my standard sterling with a “.925” stamp, so
I am probably going to want to get a stamp to mark As. I would assume
I need one that says “As-.9??”. I believe completely that my
customers should be totally aware of what they are buying, so I want
to make sure I mark it correctly.

I will eventually find out if I will become a total convert, but
have a feeling I will be keeping both standard sterling and As on
hand. I am really excited to learn some new skills with the As, (I am
ALWAYS excited to learn new skills), and not having to constantly
polish work for shows is SO exciting!

BTW, I love the Ganoksin community for being such a rich resource.
Even when our members are arguing points of a given topic, I learn SO
much. I still miss school a little bit because it’s always nice to
have another artist/craftsperson around to bounce ideas and
troubleshoot issues with. But knowing I can come here at any time to
get input is just amazing. What a magical world and time we live in
that we have instant communication, which has definitely opened up
the world to everyone.

Best,
Teresa

Hello, New to working with argentium and a couple of things
happening.

  1. I layed a thin 24 ga. textured piece of as. down on soderite
    board and fluxed. Placed a shaped wire in top that I had fluxed (19
    ga.) Heated to fuse and all was well until I picked up the piece and
    found the back side had the impression of the shaped wire on it. ??

  2. Same as above but instead of a wire I placed a small thin shape
    and when I fused the small shape had domed. Got that several times.
    ??

  3. How do you support a ring and solder a bezel in top? I am using a
    ring tweezer and when I get it up to temperature it snaps in
    half…?

  4. Pieces end up gray an not able to get the bright white silver the
    video shows.

  5. Does anyone use their pickle for it?

  6. I am trying to figure out why my pickle keeps crystallizing on me
    if I don’t keep it hot ( Low heat on the crock pot). I don’t like
    the fumes it give off while hot, can feel it in the back of my
    throat when I lift the lid, sure that is not good! It is the regular
    pickle that Rio sells for silver. Wanted to get rid of pickle, that
    was one of the reasons of trying out as, but an interesting learning
    curve.

Any direction is welcomed.

Peace for all,
Carole

The finest manufacturers of sterling like Tiffany's plates their
sterling to cover the fire scale their master silver smiths have
to deal with. A torch, however skilled, will always bring some
copper to the surface. You can minimize it by careful torch work
but you cannot prevent all of it. 

Hummm… I must be greener than I thought. Torch control yes… but no
one has mentioned the obvious combination of torch control, Pripps or
borax/alcohol, FireScoff etc. I’ve coated sterling with Pripps and
one of the expensive commercial preparations (both as a test) and put
it in the kiln at 1600 for a while with no firescale… so I don’t
get the argentium firescale thing. Why the excitement? You don’t get
firescale with sterling if you take the time to prevent it. It ain’t
rocket science. From my perspective, firescale is a product of bad
training, technique or both. It’s just metal… you control how it
works. If I understand it correctly, Argentium was developed as a
casting alloy… that makes sense given you have no control over
firescale casting (or I don’t think you do - I know have very little
casting experience).

I have been following this thread with interest. I agree with
(forgive me for not remembering) our friend who pointed out that we
are metalsmiths… and that the metal yields to our knowledge of it.
I personally have little use for Argentium… bought some years ago,
played with it… never saw the need to relearn anything. Hate that
hot short thing I do. So, I just avoid using it… I don’t
particularly like 14K either, but know how it works and can deal with
it… it is washed out and ugly too (color wise)… LOL.

I don’t think Argentium is a fad, but who cares? If it works for you
use it. If it does not… figure out how to work sterling and not get
firescale. It is just another metal. I don’t like Argentium and won’t
use it… my choice. It’s just a metal… the evangalism weirds me out
a bit. I think I will develop a new and wonderful workshop on how to
use the exciting alloy sterling silver… and not get firescale :slight_smile:

Brent

Wow! Leonid

Was that before or after you were machining within I micron
tolerances on an old worn out lathe?

All sterling manufacturers will plate their sterling if necessary.
It is not absurd. I have seen bathtub sized plating units designed to
do the large trophys and plate and such. Hey I even saw it on “How
it’s made”!

But seriously when I was training in Ireland we would visit some of
the small factories that made stuff for the likes of Gerrard’s and
others fine establishments in Britain and they all had to deal with
firescale and it’s ability to come on during the final polish, where
it was invisible before. They used two methods where I was. They
sanded it off or would plate it. They would even start with thicker
metal than they needed so they had some room to sand it and still
keep the desired thickness. Why would they do that? Because no matter
how careful you are with sterling sometimes firescale will happen.
Maybe just a bit here and there but enough that you have to clean it
up or cover it.

Sam

If I understand it correctly, Argentium was developed as a casting
alloy.. that makes sense given you have no control over firescale
casting (or I don't think you do - I know have very little casting
experience). 

That’s not right, Argentium was not developed solely as a casting
alloy. The patent states otherwise, experts who use Argentium also
state otherwise.

I never get fire scale on a casting when I use sterling, mind you, I
don’t use investment plaster I use Delft clay, the castings come out
pretty damn smooth, and clean.

Where you get some firescale when you do sand casting, is where the
button touches the air, the rest is clean as.

I agree with you use what works for you.

Colour is very important to me, when it comes to alloys, and the
discolouration is a concern, maybe one of the experts could tell us
what’s going with the alloy discolouring.

Red short is a pain, but I’ve had to deal with it with ferrous
metals, you just need to have a full knowledge of the alloy you’re
using. If you play with mystery metals then there’s always a risk
(but that can be kind of fun too :wink: ).

Regards Charles A.

I mark all of my standard sterling with a ".925" stamp, so I am
probably going to want to get a stamp to mark As. I would assume I
need one that says "As-.9??". 

925 or sterling has a legal definition, 935 or whatever has none. If
you are interested in complying with marking laws you need to use the
correct legal stamp not that actual alloy percentage. For example if
you used 17K gold you could not legally mark it 17K you need to mark
it 14K as that is the legal quality definition it complies with.
Stamping it as Argentium would be a nice thing to do for future
repair bench jewelers though.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

Re: plating to cover firescale…

I know how to prevent firescale. It is not difficult, but I find the
process tedious—especially on large work, such as a teapot or
platter. Though the prospect of not needing to deal with firescale is
what initially drew me to Argentium Silver, it was a pleasure to
discover the additional bonuses: tarnish resistance, malleability,
harden-ability, and fuse-ability.

Each person has different needs and working habits, affecting their
silver alloy preference----I don’t think that it is realistic to
expect everyone to agree on a favorite silver alloy.

Cynthia Eid

ALL my fire scale problems have been only on two types of work: flat,
pierced work, and castings–in other words, pieces which have seen NO
soldering! Where I live, sheet often comes complete with fire
scale… And castings as well. This completely put me off castings
at the beginning of my career, and now I am very choosy about where I
buy sheet silver. If I get good sheet, I never have fire scale. I
regularly coat all silver with boric acid/alcohol when soldering.

Janet in Jerusalem

Jim,

You raise an interesting point here. Although any sterling, no
matter what it is alloyed with, is legally identified as “.925” or
“sterling”, not all sterling alloys perform the same. Because
Argentium has a very well known issue of being brittle when hot, I
could imagine that someone repairing or resizing an Argentium
sterling ring might unknowingly break or collapse the ring or part of
the ring when heating, unaware of this unique property. I agree that
an “As” stamp on Argentium could provide a helpful “heads up” for any
future repairs or sizings being done.

Has anyone out there had this type of problem when working with an
“unknown” sterling, particularly Argentium, expecting it to react as
traditional sterlings would when soldering, sizing, or repairing?

Jay Whaley

Hi,

what stamp should I use to mark the metal? 

AS in the US is 930. In Europe, it is 935 (I think that has to do
with hallmarking in the UK?)

Legally, all you need to use is your 925 stamp. (In fact, you could
mark fine silver with the 925 stamp!)

Though that is all that is legally necessary, I think it best to
indicate that it is Argentium for future repairs, collectors, etc.
Your options include: -engrave or vibro-grave an A or Argentium or AS
next to the 925 stamp. -Purchase an Argentium silver logo stamp from
Rio Grande, and stamp next to the 925 - engrave or vibro-grave
Argentium Sterling

I agree that despite the “feisty” arguments, Ganoksin and Orchid are
treasures. Thank you Hanuman, Ton, and Charles!

Cynthia Eid

New to working with argentium and a couple of things happening. 

Hi, I will offer some answers:

1. I laid a thin 24 ga. textured piece of as. down on solderite
board and fluxed. Placed a shaped wire in top that I had fluxed
(19 ga.) Heated to fuse and all was well until I picked up the
piece and found the back side had the impression of the shaped wire
on it. ?? 2. Same as above but instead of a wire I placed a small
thin shape and when I fused the small shape had domed. Got that
several times.

This happens with thin metal, sometimes. You can try less heat, or
thicker metal, or solder instead of fuse.

3. How do you support a ring and solder a bezel in top? I am using
a ring tweezers and when I get it up to temperature it snaps in
half... 

Remember that Argentium Sterling is “hot short”—meaning that it is
fragile when red hot. Bend the tweezers so that it supports without
squeezing so tightly and/or place the tweezers further from the heat.
Alternatively, prop the ring up with T-pins in a soft solderite
board, or in soldering grain.

4. Pieces end up gray an not able to get the bright white silver
the video shows. 5. Does anyone use their pickle for it? 

What video are you looking at? Have you read any articles? Remember
that AS, like any silver alloy, discolors on the surface—removed by
pickle or abrasion.

6. I am trying to figure out why my pickle keeps crystallizing on
me if I don't keep it hot ( Low heat on the crock pot). I don't
like the fumes it give off while hot, can feel it in the back of my
throat when I lift the lid, sure that is not good! It is the
regular pickle that Rio sells for silver. Wanted to get rid of
pickle, that was one of the reasons of trying out as, but an
interesting learning curve. 

It sounds like the pickle is over-saturated (more water would keep
the solids in solution, at lower temperatures.) You can ignore the
crystals, and use the solution at the cooler temperature. I hope that
you have a lid on the crockpot whenever you are not putting something
in, or taking it out. If the fumes bother you, you might consider
switching to citric acid pickle (the powder is available from grocery
stores in the canning section, or on the web.)

Best wishes,
Cynthia Eid

Rio Grande (and perhaps others) have a stamp for the Argentium logo.
I’d stamp the Argentium as .925 along with this logo.

James: Where can we get a copy of the Marking definitions and their
application? John (Jack) Sexton

I have a kind of “backwards” problem. I recently bought some
Argentium solder. Now I find that I am almost out of regular sterling
solder and not planning on buying any more metal soon, as
metalsmithing is an avocation for me.

Can I use argentium solder with sterling and fine silver? for
example, to solder a bezel closed or to put an Ar. jump ring onto a
regular sterling earring? Also, could I solder the fine silver bezel
closed, then onto a a regular sterling back plate all with the same
Ar. solder?

thanks,
Maureen M.

James: Where can we get a copy of the Marking definitions and their
application?

The FTC guides are at http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/1vd

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

soldering sterling and fine silver with argentiim solder? 

Just try it! You could learn for yourself in a few minutes instead
of waiting for a day. What if everyone says no, but it turned out no
one had tried it? Wing it, and move ahead.

Marianne Hunter

Can I use argentium solder with sterling and fine silver? 

Yes, you can use Argentium Silver solder with any silver.

Cynthia Eid

Hello Maureen,

In a word, Yes. I use AS solder on regular sterling all the time.
The color match is better and it doesn’t tarnish before the rest of
the piece.

So far as soldering the fine silver (fs) bezel closed - yes. Re:
soldering that same fs bezel to the regular sterling back plate - a
qualified yes. Because the regular sterling must be heated uniformly
up to soldering temperature, heat control is critical. I’d recommend
"tinning" solder on the base of the bezel, flux and place the bezel,
then heat from beneath. The regular silver should come to soldering
temp before your bezel does.

Hope this helps,
Judy in Kansas, where the bulbs are blooming and the redbuds are
magnificent!