Marianne,
I buy the alloy from United ( they are in NY ), but I do my refining
much closer to home ( San Diego). Downsides to the S57NA? I don’t have
any.
I have no idea what others might think, but I do hear people lumping
S57NA into the category of “alloys other than copper”, without
actually trying it, which I think is just misinformed.
So if you’ve used the S57NA alloyed sterling, report on your
findings, but if you haven’t, then you just don’t know, do you??
Jay Whaley
I disagree with this opinion. To me, it is easier for beginners to learn to solder, because it works more the way the beginner intuitively expects
This is an interesting point of view. I do not think that it is
pertinent what beginner thinks or expects. The definition of beginner
is someone who has no experience and therefore it is a job of
instructor to impart correct way of thinking about soldering.
Leonid Surpin
In response to Mark Kaplan - Argentium silver is a lovely jewelry
material, but it behaves somewhat differently from sterling, so you
have to know how to use it. See the current (March) issue of
Lapidary Journal Jewelry Artist for my pair of articles; plus a
related article about combining Argentium with PMC. Argentium fuses
easily, and is especially appropriate for granulation, filigree, and
similar refined detailing which would be difficult or impossible with
other metals. Since Argentium can be fused, you will rarely need to
solder it. Try it! You’ll be surprised and delighted by what you can
do with Argentium. After studying Argentium with Ronda Coryell at
Revere Academy and at Mendocino Art Center, I got rid of all my
regular sterling, and now work mostly in Argentium. Ronda now heads
up Jewelry Studies International in Austin, Texas. She has a series
of useful instructional videos on working with Argentium.
Betsy Porter, Oakland, CA
All of my work involves multiple soldering procedures. I had no idea the germanium could weaken a previously secure joint. I'd learned not to touch/poke argentium when hot, but I don't see a way around the progressive issue with repeated soldering of argentium.
To me, Argentium Silver is fabulous for multiple soldering
procedures, because the heat does not get transmitted the way it is
for traditional SS, so there is far less need for graduated solders,
and worrying about the previous joints re-flowing. If you take
advantage of the ability to fuse cleanly, then it is even more
wonderful for multiple joints. I do not understand the idea that
germanium might weaken a joint----that sounds like fear-mongering to
me. I disagree.
Cynthia Eid
So if you've used the S57NA alloyed sterling, report on your findings"
I use it too, Jay, and love it! Haven’t found any reasons NOT to
use–no firescale issues, casts, rolls, and draws very nicely!
Beckie
Hi Ruth Ann - I’ve been making and selling Argentium chainmaille
jewelry for @ 7 years now, in sizes from 20G 3mm ID to 14G 7.5mm ID.
While I do have my preferred sizes for stability, I find that some
size rings, while too large and unstable for some weaves, work well
in others. Let me know how I can help.
Blessings,
Sam Kaffine
I agree with Cynthia about less need for graduated solders. When the
AS solders came out some years ago, I began using them on all my
sterling work. Yup. On the regular sterling too. The solder joint is
virtually undetectable because the color is right and it doesn’t
tarnish like the regular sterling solders - the easy solder seems to
show itself almost immediately!
Now that I think about it, I hardly ever use anything but hard AS
solder on all work. The easy AS solder is good to have but it’s not
my “work horse” solder.
Judy in Kansas, where the prediction is for a beautiful warm, sunny
day… and I have to go in to take the tax stuff to my accountant.
Hope it’s a fast interview!
I’ve been following this thread and wish to declare myself as
another ardent proponent of Argentium silver.
And, I an not funded by the Argentium industry. As a matter of fact,
I have joyfully paid for the opportunity to learn more about
Argentium for the purpose of hand fabricating jewelry.
As far as some of the stories that have been posted on Orchid
regarding failed construction and attributing the failure to the use
of Argentium (as opposed to sterling), I would suggest that the
failure has more to do with the user not understanding how to
properly fabricate, fuse and/or solder Argentium.
I am presently working on a piece that has multiple components. I
first fuse as many parts as I can while maintaining the integrity of
the assembly, then I solder with Argentium solder to take it to
completion. It’s achievable with the proper training by a
knowledgeable Argentium instructor via classes or DVDs.
I also often read/hear about how if you touch Argentium while it is
red-hot, it will shatter.This is true, however it takes only seconds
for the red-hot appearance of the metal to dissipate ((can you count
from 1 - 10?), (larger piecesmay take a little longer)), and then it
can be quenched if desired. The hardest part is just remembering to
take a brief pause before picking it up with your pliers or
tweezers.
For those of you who are “riding the fence” on choosing between
standard sterling silver and Argentium, I can suggest Ronda
Coryell’s DVDs and/or taking an Argentium class taught by Ronda at
her school, Jewelry Studies International in Austin TX.
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/z6
Ronda is a wonderful instructor and Master BenchJeweler and isvery
patient with her students. Her enthusiasm for Argentium is
contagious. I, personally am so glad that I had the opportunity to
learn from Ronda and become familiar with Argentium.
I like white metal but I do not like traditional sterling, nor do I
like the color and other properties of white gold. Argentium has
given me analternate white metal to work with and for that, I am
very happy.
Vicki Stone
Leonid:
It turned out that each and every time they were using Argentium silver
I really doubt that.
...in hand fabrication is parts easily sticking together.
Argentium parts do not easily stick together. That’s nonsense.
Vicki Stone
it.... has a lot of zealots that tout its virtues many of them are funded by the Argentium industry... I'm sure they will come out on the board and extol its virtues...
I would like to clear up the notion that we are “on the payroll” so
to speak if we are extolling the virtues of Argentium. I am NOT
funded by Argentium Industry. I simply love the metal and have a
passion for learning more about it and passing the along
to my students. Our school and curriculum was developed to fill a
gap in education, not just of Argentium, but jewelry education in
general. As Mary said, there were no teachers to help. I’m here to
help teach the teachers. Our goal is to teach students to use
Argentium from the basics to advanced fabrication involving both
soldering and fusing. And I find that beginners are the easiest to
teach as they have no pre-conceived ideas about how things should
work or bad habits to break.
And people like Cynthia Eid are there every day to answer the many
questions that arise. I have the utmost respect for those willing to
share their knowledge and experiences with those needing guidance.
You rock, Cindy! The thing I love about Ganoksin, is the
conversations that arise and the many perspectives we get from those
that give their insight.
I have tested over 8 other alloys from various manufacturers to try
and find another one that works like Argentium. Sterlium from
Stuller was the closest to almost working the way I need. But,
again, I am fusing. I found that the Platinum Silver seemed to get
firescale the worst, but only a quick test of it showed my it would
not fuse the way I needed. I would love it if there were several to
choose from. There just isn’t that I have found.
Ronda Coryell
jewelrystudiesintl.com
It turned out that each and every time they were using Argentium
silver
I really doubt that.
I used Argentium for the Eternity ring project. The Argentium sagged
a bit, as Argentium can, and the piece went out of round. Precision
of the shape is critical to the design of that ring. Argentium is
not a good choice of material for that design.
If Leonid says others have reported having trouble using Argentium
then they did.
I don’t have any problems with Orchid members disagreeing, even
disagreeing forcefully. But I am getting annoyed with those few who
subtly or not so subtly try to impugn the honesty or decency of
Orchid members. The above comment, another person implying that
someone who says anything positive about Argentium may be a paid
shill, and another other recent post of a similar nature are
offensive.
…in hand fabrication is parts easily sticking together.
Argentium parts do not easily stick together. That's nonsense.
No it isn’t. I’ve made bracelets and necklaces with Argentium, 3
links in 2 links, etc. etc. and even with the smallest LittleTorch
tip the links would often stick together slightly. I admit parts were
in very close contact and I was fusing, but there was sticking of
parts away from the torch flame. Argentium does fuse easily. That
is a quality I appreciate when that is what I want the material to
do.
Different materials have different properties. Some materials work
well for some projects, some work less well, or even poorly.
Argentium has its place. It isn’t for everything.
Neil A.
I am a master jeweler and have been making jewelry for 35 years,
fabricating and casting with platinum, gold and Sterling silver. I am
very set with my skills. So when I was introduced to Argentium, not
knowing much about the new silver alloy, I treated it as Stering. As
no surprise- I hated it until I learned the properties and the ways
to work with Argentium. As soon as i put my skills and my new
knowledge about Argentium together, I fell in love with it.
The reason people, specially the experienced jewelers, are having
trouble with Argentium, is that they have preconceived notions about
metals - in this case two Silver alloys that behave totally
different from each other, almost like two different metals. It’s the
same way as you would think, " I’m an experienced jeweler, I work in
gold and I have the skills, so how hard could it be to work in
platinum?" Right? Wrong. Because if you don’t know platinum you will
run in to lots of problems, the most comon one soldering or annealing
on charcoal block, which will contaminate the platinum and result in
cracking of the metal. However beginners have no problems with
Argentium because unlike the experienced jewelers, they don’t have
preconceived notions. With the proper instruction from
Argentium-certified instructors, they do a great job - I could say
even better than if they worked with Sterling.
I now I live in Austin TX and opened a jewelry school JEWELRY STUDIES
INTL., and our choice of metal to teach with is Argentium because of
the many good reasons people mentioned in this post.
Please, get to know Argentium. Get the proper training and then if
you still don’t like it, then you can trash it.
Vasken Tanielian
Most of the posts I’ve been reading where people are having issues
with Argentium may be caused by a lack of complete understanding
about the alloy. I created the very first Argentium piece in North
America.
The British company representing Argentium approached me over a
decade ago to test the alloy. During this time (just over one year) I
was put on retainer as a technical consultant as I reported my
findings to Peter Johns, the developer. I have not been compensated
since, though, I continue to promote Argentium.
Below is an excerpt from my technical paper on Argentium,
specifically the ladle - created with no prior experience:
My first experience using this alloy was with an unrolled ingot 5/8"
wide x 4" long x.450" thick. I had decided to make a ladle, working
this piece of metal to death without the use of flux to protect
against firestain. I hot-forged the ingot twice, then worked the
ingot cold along with 20 annealings. I felt this would be the perfect
test see just how firestain-resistant Argentium was. The primary
difference was judging the temperature during annealing. I witnessed
a distinct difference in color; it was a very pale red glow that
showed. This alloy has a melting temperature about 60 degrees below
that of standard sterling, so bringing it up to a standard sterling
annealing color would be too high. There is the need to allow the
ArgentiumR Sterling Silver to “rest” before quenching or forging
since it tends to be a bit brittle at this temperature.
The alloy filed and abraded with silicon carbide wet-dry paper like
standard sterling, perhaps a bit softer, though, you could run over
the ladle with a tank without worry of distortion. The real test was
to come. How would this horribly abused piece of metal hold-up to
firestain? Well, I was admittedly skeptical at first, as any
silversmith would be. I polished the ladle for what seemed to be an
eternity, thinking that I would eventually see that wretched purple
stain. It simply didn’t appear! I was laughing inside as I polished,
thinking that this alloy would revitalize the use of silver. I
examined the surface under a 10x loupe to see if there were any
irregularities in the surface…it was as perfect as standard
sterling.
Jeff Herman
I have been working in Sterling Silver for the last few years and am
constantly frustrated. I recently learned about Argentium silver. A
new school opened in Austin, TX, JSI, and I enrolled in a class in
heavy bezels and was amazed at how easy it was to fabricate and
create a finished bezel. There are quirks to working in Argentium but
with an experienced teacher explaining I was very impressed with the
ease in working with this material. I also take class at Austin
Community College in the Jewelry department where we work in
sterling. My teachers also do not have great things to say about
Argentium but admit that they have not taken the time to learn about
Argentium. Find an experienced teacher who can convey the difference
between the two metals and I believe you will change your view.
Linda Love
Argentium is a fine alloy. It is probably not for everyone, but I
find it to be a great fit for my work and fabrication methods. My
work is generally larger in scale than most jewelry. I began using
it when it became available in the US and liked it so much that I
packed all my non-germanium silver and sent it to the refinery. I had
worked with regular sterling for 18 years prior to being introduced
to the argentium sterling. It is wonderful that we have different
ways of working and different alloys in which to complete our
projects. I think that just because one chooses one alloy over
another, that choice, should not be considered substandard. We all
work differently, that is the beauty of what we do.
Susan
My feeling is that the colour of Argentium silver is another
advantage.
My jewellery work is not my profession so I don’t have the years of
experience many other people on Ganoksin have. However I haven’t had
any trouble using Argentium silver and I really appreciate it’s
advantages.
I have taken classes from Ronda Coryell. Her entire jewellery
industry knowledge is extensive and she does her research. I know
she has researched Argentium silver and feels very positive about it.
I highly recommend taking any course at her Jewelery Studies Intl.
school. Ronda is an awesome teacher. She loves what she does and
shares that enthusium in addition to her knowledge with all her
students.
Nancy Lord
First let me declare my interest. I am employed by Argentium
International and I do get paid by them. Of everyone that has posted
about Argentium silver (other than Jeffery Herman’s consultancy many
years ago which he declared) I am the only person that has posted on
this discussion that has received any payment from Argentium
International.
I would like to thank Mark for starting this thread and I think it
has shown the best of Orchid with the open and honest exchange of
views and opinions. Long may it continue! I do not think that we have
ever claimed that Argentium silver is suitable for everything that is
currently made with traditional sterling silver alloys, but I do
believe that Argentium silver alloys have some useful properties
which are being used to fabricate some really outstanding designs by
some very talented people who have embraced working with the alloy.
I have found the comments by those that have experienced problems
with Argentium silver to be very interesting. They have shown the
areas where we must better communicate the differences between
Argentium silver and more traditional sterling alloys. Without a
forum such as this sharing these comments then sometimes you forget
this.
Charles Allenden
Argentium International
In response to Mark in RI’s commentary on this article: Argentium or
sterling? I completely disagree with Mark’s statement that ‘for a
beginner Argentium is more difficult to solder than traditional
sterling’, and genuinely hope that this does not discourage any
beginner from working with this fabulous metal.
I am one of those beginners! My day job is in computer software and
I had been looking for something a little less stressful for a
retirement business. Because jewelry making appeals to my love of art
and my need to create something beautiful, I decided to try a few
classes to see if this was a good career path for me.
My first exposure to jewelry making was at a workshop taught by Ronda
Coryell, which happened to focus on beginning Argentium techniques.
By the end of the first day, I had a few completed pieces of jewelry,
and by the end of the second day, I had completed two beautiful
wedding rings (both made with Argentium silver fused with gold).
Ronda pointed out that if I had attempted to make the same rings with
traditional sterling silver, I would have had to solder each tiny
gold piece onto the ring one by one. that would have taken forever!
Being in the computer industry, I am very familiar with the concept
that in order to join two pieces of metal together, you must solder
them. But wow, much to my amazement, this is no longer necessarily
true with Argentium!
So, after the workshop that first day, one of Ronda’s students asked
how strong the fused bond would be from fusing an Argentium seam.
Ronda asked us if we wanted to try a challenge that we
enthusiastically accepted. Two identical rings were made, one with
traditional sterling silver that was soldered and one with Argentium
where the seam was fused. One of the students first tried to stretch
the soldered ring and it snapped at the seam right away (it didn’t
stretch at all)… she then took the Argentium ring and was able to
stretch the Argentium ring far beyond the tradition sterling ring
size until it reached the point where it would no longer stretch
(never breaking apart). Beyond that you can fuse the metal in the
first place, this was clear evidence to me how superior Argentium is
to traditional sterling silver and became an instant fan! I was
hooked from this experience and decided to pursue jewelry making as
my next career path and immediately purchased a couple of Ronda’s
excellent training DVDs, which I could watch and replay while
practicing her techniques.
I then wanted to get more serious about learning all I could about
jewelry making, so I proceeded to sign up for a couple of classes. I
took a basic fabrication class where we worked entirely with
traditional sterling and learned a lot of varying techniques in this
class, including soldering with traditional silver. I took another
beginning jewelry class, where we attempted to make several rings. I
actually found both of these classes to be very frustrating and was
not able to come home with completely finished pieces from either
class, where as I had a real feeling of accomplishment from taking
Ronda’s Argentium workshop. I felt that the soldering experience with
traditional sterling was a sharp contrast to the ease I felt fusing
or soldering Argentium. I would have to say that the time investment
for making an Argentium piece is so vastly more efficient than
working with traditional sterling and I feel as though Argentium is a
metal for the NEW AGE where when working with traditional sterling, I
felt like I was in the dark ages.
Mark’s claim that ’ it is still a relatively new product and has a
lot of zealots that tout its virtures virtues many of them are funded
by the agentium Argentium industry’ is obviously only his opinion,
because as far as I am concerned, there are a lot of zealots because
it is such an amazing metal! I think that Mark obviously has a
background in traditional sterling where his opinion is biased and
traditional sterling is his comfort zone. It is true that the
techniques in using the two metals are indeed different, but once you
’get it’, Argentium IS JUST SO EASY to work with. I guess that I was
fortunate enough that my first experience with jewelry making was
from one of the most knowledgeable Argentium educators there is,
Ronda Coryell. I honestly could go on and on about the other
advantages of Argentium but then Mark might accuse me of being a
zealot! Let Mark know that I am funded by my day job in computers
still, but wanted to write this so others will not be dissuaded by
Mark’s negativity on Argentium. So now I am headed back to Austin to
take more classes from Ronda at her school and am dedicated to
learning more about Argentium fabrication techniques. Beginner & fan
of Argentium, Jan
is obviously only his opinion, because as far as I am concerned, there are a lot of zealots because it is such an amazing metal!
It is not so obvious to me. Argentium may be ok for simple projects.
One or two stage soldering. That is all. It is alloy developed for
casting and not fabrication. So if all you is finishing casting with
a little soldering, it will be fine. Anything more complex and
gremlins come out.
Leonid Surpin
Further to my recent post on realigning soldered Argentium
components. Peter Johns has asked me to point out that at JSI we are
using the new Argentium solders that have lower working temperatures
and improved flow. Try it, you will not be disappointed.
Vasken Tanielian