Are they Rubies?

Jewelry Discussion
41

Cap’n kirk just responded to my challenge as follows:

  "Though the photos are fair they're not really adequate.
  'Should be 10X closeupped at least. BUT I'll guess that the
  last shot is of a natural ruby. (And I said guess since that's
  all one could do with a photo of course...which is what Rebecca
  wanted in the first place...not a paid, guaranteed, ID or
  appraisal...)"

Cap’n, you said “decent” photographs. I think the eight I sent are
quite decent. And they certainly show color very clearly. You’re
correct that the last shot is of a natural ruby but so are four
others. Care to try again?

Beth

42 
  I have assumed that the only gems that ever get tested are the
ones that are set (or about to be set) in high-end jewelry.

Not really true - you can test some properties quite simply,
particularly if you have a whole string of beads and can sacrifice
one. Hardness for instance, you can determine by scratch testing;
certain minerals have distinctive cleavage patterns that show up if
you crush a bead. This type of test won’t give you definitive
identifications, but it can tell you whether something is yellow
jade or calcite/aragonite (the latter fizzes in HCl). But putting
my reputation on the line by being authoritative, from a picture
yet, about something as valuable and frequently-mimicked as rubies -
no, I’ll leave that for the folks with the magic eyes and no fear of
lawyers.

Tas
www.earthlywealth.com

43

Lisa,

You’re right about where this thread began. I don’t think any of us
seriously advocated having strands of beads tested for ID by a GG,
given the typical usage and – as you point out, heavily included
quality – of such beads. It would simply not meet the economics.

However, Cap’n Kirk replied to the original poster with his
misguided assertion that if she emailed him a photo, he could
definitely identify whether they were rubies or not. That’s what
sparked all the ensuing debate – it’s simply too dangerous an
assertion to leave out there unchallenged.

Having said that, I do occasionally use gemstone beads in my pieces.
When I do, I try to take care about how I represent them. In most
cases, I’ve bought high-quality beads from a dealer who I’ve dealt
with for a long time, with GGs on staff. For larger pieces, I have
an independent GG look at them at time of purchase.

For run-of-the-mill beads, it depends on who I’ve gone to as the
dealer as to how I feel about it – Metalliferous’ bead room is
wonderful, for example, but I wouldn’t rely on them for having
checked the pieces they display because of the nature of their
business (closeout).

If the beads are not the primary “value” in the piece, but are
simply an accent stone, that is 1/1000th of the piece, then I’m not
really going to care all that much – but will honestly disclose that
"I bought them as rubies and believe them to be such, but haven’t had
them tested by a GG."

However, if they are a central part of the piece then I want to be
MUCH more careful and may get a couple of representative ones looked
at by a local GG so that I can tell the customer “This is a ruby
necklace” and not worry that it’s not. If I don’t want to go to that
trouble for some reason, I’ll disclose as above.

I just feel strongly that the jewelry biz has a shady side and it’s
up to me to make sure that I am not contributing to that reputation.
I don’t want any of my customers to feel cheated or that I knowingly
misrepresented something to them.

Karen

44

I became involved in Optical Mineralogy while in High School. Took
Mineralogy & Crystallography in College. Went back to school for my
GGS Graduate Gemological Science at TIJT, Paris Texas I have most of
my professional tools.

I do not mix my Physics and Metaphysics .

I am installing electrical fixtures and pulling wire in my Studio
under a Home Owner permit. A licensed electrician will finish the
work.

I do what I can as my knowledge and abilities permit. After that
limit is reached, I take my work to professionals I trust.

ROBB

Theory says there is no difference
between theory and practice
Practice says other wise.

45

Finally a person here has remained with the point, congratulations!!
Most of the other responses were digressions which seemed to satisfy
various ‘experts’ agendas. NEVER did I say anywhere that I could ID
a gem-grade (transparent of course) ruby from a photo. The original
query was whether a strand of “cheap” briolette beads could be ruby
or not. I responded by offering a “probability” of ID’ing if the
photo was decent at all. Of course ‘photoshop’ COULD make a mockery
of the colors BUT why would we assume this type of chicanery amongst
a group of professionals? I buy and sell stones regularly using
others snapshots or my own little Sony Mavica (visit my site if you
wish to see ordinary but quite representative shots of gem
minerals); I never have problems with the photo aspect because all
of my clients have been honest about using regular lighting always.
I also thank the gemologist who acknowledged that emeralds could be
ID’d by continent by simply noting the shade of ‘blue’ or 'yelloe
midst the green. There are MANY ways of identifying gems but relying
on one or two instruments will definitely make a color-blind cripple
out of the ordinary gemologist. Learn to use your touch/feel and
eyeballs and maybe even your ear and nose if you wish to travel far
in the world of precious stones. AND I’d like to thank all who
participated in this, if not edifying, at minimum provocative,
discussion which indeed manifested the eclectic atmosphere of the
Orchid group…

46

OK, please, enough about my supposed rubies. I am going back into
lurkdom now, after kicking off a nice fight, completely
unintentionally. Could I just say, however, that because the stones
were not expensive, I have no intention of spending a bunch of money
to see if they are “real”. I will not be marking them up
ridiculously, and as Karen suggested, will sell them with the
disclaimer “they were presented to me as rubies, but may be
synthetic” or something like that. The bottom line is, they are
pretty, look nothing like garnets and I don’t really care what they
are. Just wanted to tell my customers something. For those that
tried to help me, thank you. I really thought with all the
knowledge out there, that it would be OK to ask for an off the cuff,
no strings, yes, guess. It’s not like I’m going to stick a $3,000
price tag on them and wait to get sued when someone finds out they
are glass. This is a wonderful resource, but do you all realize how
scary you make it for a beginner to ask a question? I hope no one
has gotten hurt feelings because of me. Back into hiding I go…

Rebecca

47 
    And I wonder if you know: the Crown Jewels of England for
centuries had a worshipped center gem thought to be Ruby. With
modern testing it showed itself to be a Spinel.

I would guess that most gemology programs reference the Black
Prince’s Ruby in their curriculum, along with the fact that this
particular Spinel is still referred to as a Ruby due to its’
provenance. Even as a Spinel, it’s size and quality make it a
world-class gem in it’s own right.

All, gemology does not have to be particularly expensive. Sure, you
can spend several thousand dollars on gemological training and arm
yourself with a complete $10,000 gem lab, complete with everything
you need to assault all of the synthetic, natural and simulant gems.
But there are alternatives. The books listed below are excellent
resources for people who would like to become proficient in gem
identification without extensive academia.

Gem Identification Made Easy:

The author claims that with this book, a person can identify 80% of
all using four pieces of equipment that can be carried in
your pocket. While a simple read-through of this book won’t likely
lend a rank novice that ability, I agree that, with some study, it
is absolutely possible. A loupe, chelsea filter and dichroscope can
provide most of the clues you need. Add a set of specific gravity
liquids and you have a potent mini lab. Break apart an old pair of
polarizing sunglasses and you have the makings of a very affordable
polariscope.

Guide to Affordable Gemology:

The author of this book, Dr. W. Hanneman, is a gemological genius
who laughs at the expensive equipment requirements of gemological
schools. His solutions to the “detective” a gemologist must be to
ply his trade are innovative and often require very simple,
inexpensive alternatives to, say, the $670 gem refractometer. He
also has plenty of affordable equipment of his invention available
at:

Hanneman Gemological Instruments
P.O. Box 942
Poulsbo, WA 98370

His filter systems alone are worth the price. Write and ask for the
“catalog.” You’ll receive a rather unimpressive-looking two pieces
of photocopied paper, listing equipment and articles authored by Dr.
Hanneman. I am in no way affiliated with Dr. Hanneman or Hanneman
Gemological Instruments, just a very happy customer who appreciates
his approach.

Anyone who buys and sells gem materials and would like to know more
about properly identifying them should look into Gem Identification
Made Easy. Those who have learned the basic principles of gemology
will find Hanneman’s approach affordable and, in many instances,
simple.

James in SoFl who is 48 and glad that somebody regards him as a “younger
gemologist”

48

Rebecca Don’t you know by now that these wonderful folks here at
Orchid live for this stuff. If you didn’t come up with it a lot of
people would have to have something else to discuss heatedly, which
would be a shame cause i love it!.. Harry

49

Hi Rebecca,

This is a wonderful resource, but do you all realize how scary you
make it for a beginner to ask a question?  I hope no one has gotten
hurt feelings because of me.  Back into hiding I go.....

Don’t go back into hiding! No one is blaming you for anything; in
fact, there’s no blame to be attached. Orchid thrives not only on
the sharing of sources and techniques but on the open exchange of
ideas and concepts. If sometimes that leads to debate or
controversy, that’s okay! As long as we all remember basic
courtesies, Orchid will continue to thrive.

I’m sorry you feel intimidated but I don’t quite know why you do.
You asked a question which sparked a lot of discussion and led to a
disagreement. There’s nothing wrong with that. In fact, I would urge
you to stick around and do it again!

Cheers,
Beth

50

Rebecca,
Never retreat.

Every now and then a subject comes along that brings out rants and
raves. Not to worry, just another cycle. Just think if you had asked
if they could be “smart rubies.”

This is a list that shows more acceptance and appreciation of one
another, and is incredibly sharing of that in some
circles is considered foolish to share. Trade secrets you know.

Hang in with us, and do interject when the opportunity presents
itself. Remember, your feet are now wet, you no longer are a
newcomer.

Hugs and welcome,
Terrie

51

Hi, Karen,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I usually say to people who are
buying jewelry with stones from me something like what you say: “I
bought these x’s from a dealer I consider reputable, but there’s so
much going on in the gem trade that I can’t swear to you that they
aren’t lab-grown or whatever.” On the other hand, when I make signs
for my pieces, I’m not going to add even more (self-defeating!) words
to something like this: “Necklace featuring rubies and hand-made
glass beads by Nanette Young-Greiner, as well as Swarovski crystal,
freshwater pearls, vintage German, Japanese, and fiber optic glass,
hand-made 14 karat gold-filled wire beads and clasp.”(Although, if I
don’t know anything about a glass bead, I will tend to list it as
"mystery glass!")

I bought those rubies at a post-Tucson sale held by my local
high-end bead store. Unlike with e.g. the quartz scams, I have never
personally heard of anyone testing those classic opaque ruby beads
and finding out that someone has gone to the trouble of making
"fakes."

The whole digression into Photoshop issues got to me, too, because
the original poster was trying to be honest, so she wasn’t about to
doctor a photo so that she could be told the beads were real. In
fact, how many of us buy beads or stones as a result of a lovely
online photo posted by a dealer we’ve heard good things about? I
think the attacks made Cap’n Kirk defensive and he got polarized and
started to overstate his case. But I would bet that, if the beader in
question had sent him a decent photo, he could have made an educated
guess, and I don’t think she really needed more than that.

Actually, this leads to a question for me: do you trust Rio? Or Fire
Mountain? I know the former has GGs on staff, and I’ve been told
they spot-check the beads, but I would bet they don’t test
everything. Also, these are the only places from which I actually buy
"stones", which, so far, I “set” in wire or PMC–and I’m much more
concerned about those. If the catalog says it’s an untreated
amethyst, would you trust that, or would you still do a song and
dance with the customer? Or pay a local GG to look at them? I’ve
always assumed I could trust them. Maybe I should just stick to
Swarovski…

Lisa Orlando
Aphrodite’s Ornaments
(stuck outside of Mobile with the Memphis blues again)

52

Hello Rebecca,

You make a good point in that posting can be pretty scarey, even with
Hanuman and Ton carrying extinguishers to put out flames. I hope you
don’t lurk for long, as fresh insights are only possible when
questions are examined from many angles. Where do the best questions
come from?? – all of us, but often they come from that person new to
the field.

Our thoughtful responses should always be courteous, to the point,
and concise. Let everyone remember that although few post, many read
and form opinions.

Thanks to Hanuman and Ton and to Charles Lewton-Brain for the Orchid
concept and its implementation,

Judy in Kansas, where my tomatoes have quit but the okra keeps on,
and the box turtles are less and less active before their long winter
sleep.

53

James - Dr. Hanneman has moved. His new address is P.O. Box 1944,
Granbury, TX 76048. I really enjoy his writing. He is a frugal
iconoclast who tells it like it is. He has a knack of stripping
things down to the naked basics and then employing very simple
everyday materials to determine the data needed. He does an
excellent job of telling you how to make most of his instruments. I
got one of his specific gravity balance kits. It works great. I
think it cost me all of $15.00. I could have scrounged up my own
materials and made one following the instructions in his book, but
his kit was an economical convenience. I have no connection to Dr.
Hanneman, just a very satisfied fan of his. The world could use some
more like him. If you are starting to study gems like my wife and I
are, write him. As James says, ask for his “catalog.” You will not
be sorry you did.

Captain Blood
"Marlinespike Seamanship in Precious Metals"
@Alden_Glenda_Blood

54

Hi Rebecca,

    This is a wonderful resource, but do you all realize how scary
you make it for a beginner to ask a question?  I hope no one has
gotten hurt feelings because of me.  Back into hiding I go.....

Please don’t hide, Rebecca. Believe me, I had similar reactions the
first several times I posted to this group. That’s right, I said
several. Often, the printed word lacks the tone and inflection that
the spoken word conveys. That leads to misunderstandings and
sometimes, controversy. Nobody here will actually bite, although
I’ve been snapped at a few times. I agree that this forum can be a
little frightening, what with so many opinions from so many
knowledgeable people, but don’t let anyone scare you away from
posting. One of the things I’ve learned from this group is that
there are many problems out there that have many, many solutions,
and this group is dedicated to helping anyone who wishes to find a
solution.

As for this thread, of course most of you who are not gemologists
can’t have professional IDs done on each and every bead, briolette,
gemstone, etc., that simply isn’t practical, much less affordable.
The good news is that you can learn enough ID skills on your own to
identify most common Also, stick to reputable dealers
whose reputation depends on their honesty. A dealer who has been
around for some time has been around because of their reputation.
When an incorrectly identified stone passes their spot check, most
will make it right for you.

I’m talking about the typical gem materials that a lot are writing
about here now; beads, birthstones, etc. Amethyst came into question
recently, also. Once laboratories figured out how to twin quartz, it
became nearly impossible to separate natural Amethyst from synthetic
without multi-million-dollar testing equipment, and it is currently
estimated that 50% of the world’s supply of finished Amethyst is
synthetic. Does it matter? Not to me. Should you disclose that fact
to a customer? Nobody does, either due to ignorance, or because the
trade accepts it. Should you send all your Amethyst to a gem lab to
have it identified? Certainly not, testing one stone would cost more
than the entire parcel. Is Rio’s Amethyst all natural? Doubtful, but
possible. They won’t know for certain, and neither would a store
gemologist, so why worry?

Fine to Extra Fine rare stones should always be purchased from a
reputable dealer. However, if you buy from strangers, even at shows,
you had better do your gem ID homework or pay a good gemologist for
an ID and appraisal. After all, you wouldn’t have your accountant
diagnose your ailment, would you?

James in SoFl who only wanted Rebecca to find out somehow if her
beads are Ruby or not.

55

Are they Rubies? Standard professesional Gem Identification
procedures will determine whether or not the stone/s in question are
rubies. Natural or synthetic. If synthetic, what kind. If natural,
whether or not treated. Everyone dealing with colored stones should
be able to run the set of tests. A microscope is suggested for high
magnification of characteristic inclusions. Just a word to the
wise…?