if they would drink water that was only 37.5 % pure water.
It has been known, but only when the remainder was a whiskey!
Charles
Newbies pay close attention. There are those who listen and learn
and those who take offence and keep making inferior quality.
They justify the rubbish by whatever nefarious/specious arguments
they can muster. Orchid is about quality not justification.
my experience with 9 kt gold is a little pinkie ring, set with a small lapis cab, which I have worn 24/7 for the last 30 years. It looks like gold to me (and to anyone else who sees it). The shank is somewhat worn, but not worn out yet. I love it, and simply do not care if I get "respect from goldsmiths" for wearing 18k gold.
If 9 kt yellow looks like gold to you and the others, quite simply
you and they do not know the true colour of quality yellow gold.
I sell 18 kt yellow (my predilection) and those who have only known
9 kt yellow are ALWAYS impressed by the RICHNESS OF COLOUR
that quality gold has. And are pleased to know it will not tarnish
like 9 kt and will be far superior in wear.
They are also horrified to find out what 375/9 kt/ 9 ct means,
mostly copper. AKA crap, legal or otherwise.
To emphasize the point I show them a piece of fine gold, there is no
comparison in colour between fine/18 kt and 9 kt.
I also explain why fine gold is alloyed to 18 kt.
Goldsmiths do not care about those who INSIST 9 kt is gold. Why?
Because goldsmiths deal with the educated who know and appreciate
quality. And want a piece of jewellery that will last generations,
not less than a lifetime. That is quality in gold smithing.
I was recently talking to a renowned and well respected goldsmith.
He talked at length about pieces that should not have been made.
For example claw set opals in rings, just a disaster waiting to
happen.
Gold and silver smithing is a code of quality!!!
Neither would set a soft stone like lapis in a pinkie ring. Judy
loupe your lapis to see why, it will be obvious.
My favourite ring to make is based on the design of an A grade
sapphire, bezel set in.8mm with a shank of 4mm by 2mm half round
comfort/soft fit.
An heirloom piece. But it is expensive some would say. Quality gold
with gems is, that, there is no getting away from.
Do I always use 18 kt?
NO! last week I set a solid Queensland opal in 22 kt, (50 carats)
open back bezel of course. The customer European. 9 kt NOT in her
vocabulary.
If you can’t afford it buy champagne or play in the traffic, real
goldsmiths don’t care!!!
We are too busy making quality.
Richard
if they would drink water that was only 37.5 % pure water. It has been known, but only when the remainder was a whiskey!
I’ll pay that, if you come to Australia I’ll buy you a whiskey 
CIA
Hi Richard,
I wasn’t really objecting to what you said, just the way you said
it. I agree 9 ct is a pain in the rump to use, but sometimes you need
to use it.
If your customer really wants 9 ct gold then you give the customer
what they want, sometimes price point is definite factor, and it’s
the difference between a “sale” and a “no sale”.
My opinion is that you inform the customer of their choices, and
specify what you think would be best suited to them, they can make
the final decisions. If they want something huge, and let’s face some
people do, they can get a larger item. More bling for their buck.
I’m not going to tell a customer that they can’t have something that
they want, even if I disagree with their choice. Standard
disclaimers are added of course, I’ll always repair something they
break, and I always stamp my work, so if they want someone else to
repair they can do that too.
If you haven’t gathered it by now, that when I do make a commission
piece, I am very much customer focused, the customer leaves with
exactly what they want (and yes sometimes it’s painful, but it’s my
choice).
Your customer must be from the Southern part of Europe.
Regards Charles A.
Hi
That’s a bad analogy
forget water the analogy I use is single malt scotch.
If only 37.5% single malt and diluted with cola etc it is crap.
If single malt and liberated (technical term) 25% with pure spring
water that can be called quality.
NO ICE.
Richard
Kathy-
Rarely do you make up a ring that is exactly what a customer wants and also miraculously fits; yippee when it does.
I don’t mean to be snarkey, really, but if Tim and I rarely made
anything that was what the customer wanted and that fit we’d be out
of business in short order.
Have fun and make lots of jewelry
Jo Haemer
timothywgreen.com
I sell 18 kt yellow
You mean that stuff which is 25% crap metal? The only gold I wear is
my wedding ring, which is .999. It’s real gold color, and has worn
well for 49 1/2 years (though I do reform it on a mandrel every
couple of years.) Anything less is not worthy for a high-class guy
like me.
Al Balmer
Pine City, NY
If single malt and liberated (technical term) 25% with pure spring water that can be called quality.
Too much. I like good scotch about 23 karat.
Al Balmer
Pine City, NY
Hi Richard,
Newbies pay close attention.
Not to fear I’m not taking offense, but I’m sure others will.
As much as you say that 9 ct gold, isn’t gold, this is your opinion,
it is not based on the Australian standards that specify what gold is
in Australia.
I like 18 ct myself, but I like to play with lower parts per
thousand golds for “fun”.
24 ct gold fine gold or .999 or higher parts per thousand, has a
gold colour that I really don’t like. This is is my opinion, I find
fine gold unattractive.
22 ct gold, meh, not as many coloured gold options as 18 ct, but 9
ct you can do so much with the colour. I don’t particularly like
working with 9 ct, I just appreciate the large colour palette.
I made a rose out of 9ct red gold, I attempted to use deep red, but
it was too difficult to use. The point, the 9ct red will patinate,
as I planned it to do, same as the shakudo and shibuichi stem. The
shibuichi leaves will go green, the copper thorns will also go
green. The centre of the rose has a brilliant cut synthetic
alexandrite (I cannot afford a “real” alexandrite that size or
clarity). The rose is set on a sterling silver frame cuff (which will
go black). On the reverse side of the cuff is a specialty gold alloy
(that I’ve kept secret) square section jump rings that have a
bluish-gold tint.
I cannot stamp the shibuichi, copper or shakudo, but I can stamp
everything else according to the Australian standards (even my
bluish gold).
Is it a quality piece, people at the show thought so.
I wanted it to patinate over time, but I’m impatient, so I’m going
to bury it in tobacco and ammonia, to speed things up (thanks to the
guy that provided the tip).
9 ct, and other lower carat golds can be used for pieces where you
want distinct patinas, that you just can’t get with higher carat
golds.
Goldsmiths do not care about those who INSIST 9 kt is gold. Why?
Because they have an opinion on what gold is and to hell with the
countries standards ?
For example claw set opals in rings, just a disaster waiting to happen.
Why would you claw set an opal? I’ve always used bezels, but I’m
open to reasons for or against.
If you can't afford it buy champagne or play in the traffic, real goldsmiths don't care!!!!!!!!
Harsh dude. Marie Antoinette got her head cut off for saying
something similar. You better be careful otherwise the cast of Le
Mis. will set up outside your house 
Regards Charles A.
P. S. You mentioned that “Orchid is about quality not
justification”, well the Orchid list isn’t that limited, there’s a
lot more to it than that
Goldsmiths do not care about those who INSIST 9 kt is gold.
I would never turn away someone who wanted something unique and made
with care and attention because they couldn’t afford to pay the extra
to have it in 18 instead of 9. To me, that is just elitist - which I
suppose is exactly what you are trying to be - That doesn’t mean that
all goldsmiths are…
When I first started making jewellery, I did not work in silver and
never put diamonds into 9ct gold, if i worked in the metal at all.
With the push towards white metals at the millenium, I have found
that 9ct white gold is far more wearable than the 18ct white gold due
to the better colour (no Ni).
Also, gold is becoming very expensive for the average person to
afford to always only have 18ct.
Besides, In the country I live in, no one wears expensive jewellery
regularly anymore because of the likelyhood that it will be stolen
off them.
If the piece is likely to be taken from them, why should they spend
extra on it? That doesn’t mean they don’t want to wear something that
is unique to them and made especially for them.
I will put as much effort into a ring in 9ct or silver as I will in
18ct.
Does this mean I am not a real jeweller?
Granted, I much prefer working in 18, but times dictate that I fill
the need that is out there.
If I turned away all the 9ct work, I would be out of business and
filling my time making quality things for myself! Please don’t just
dismiss the change in the times that we live in and the fact that
quality workmanship is also required in lesser metals.
Regards,
Gwen
If 9 kt yellow looks like gold to you and the others, quite simply you and they do not know the true colour of quality yellow gold.
I have written about this before, so excuse the redundancy, but this
monster must be slain.
In order for any alloy to exhibit at least some properties of gold,
and it is very important to emphasize SOME, not ALL - such alloy must
have at least 50% of it’s atoms been gold.
50% of atoms does not mean 50% in weight ! Here is how we calculate
weight ratios for alloys to have 50% gold atoms. In order to
understand what follows, please look up Avogadro Number.
According to Avogadro Law, any mole of a substance have exactly the
same number of atoms.
So to make alloy having 50% gold atoms, we need to take 1 mole of
gold and alloy it with 1 mole of other metal. This has interesting
consequence when translated into gold karat fineness.
Mole of gold (or molar mass for chemists) is 197 grams (rounded to
nearest gram).
Mole of silver is 108grams (rounded to nearest gram).
Mole of copper is 64 grams (rounded to nearest gram).
So alloying a mole of gold and mole of silver gives
((197 / (197+108)) * 24 = 15.5 karat fineness
Do the same with copper and we get
((197 / (197+64)) * 24 = 18.11 karat fineness
So even 18k alloys are not made equal. Gold/Silver 18k alloy is far
more expensive than Gold/Copper 18k alloy, but it is also far
superior to Gold/Copper 18k. It takes 2 moles of gold and one mole of
silver to make 18k alloy. Actually it will result in 18.83k, but that
is how it used to be. Extra fineness is needed to compensate for
solder content. Out of every 3 atoms, two atoms are gold. Now we
start getting close to real gold properties.
That is how Tiffany 18k was made, long long time ago.
Can’t resist not mentioning pink gold, which is so fashionable
nowadays.
It is made from gold and copper and while it is 18k the gold content
is only half of real 18k. It definitely sheds light on why pink gold
is so popular.
Wise man said - follow the money and the truth shall reveal itself.
Let’s take a look at 9k alloy. By alloying
1 mole of gold and 2 moles of copper we get 14.55k.
With 3 moles of copper we get 12.15k.
With 4 moles of copper we get 10.44k.
With 5 moles of copper we get 9.14k
1 mole of gold and more than 5 moles of copper! Only one atom of six
is gold in 9k alloy, when requirements are one to one, even to begin
resemble gold. I think I made my point.
Leonid Surpin
Good grief Richard! You’ll show the world how, will you? I’ve had
days like that too but i get over it. It is hard to stay puffed-up
for so long without becoming weary. Listen - the ring in question
has lasted 24/7 for 30 years - Is that not good enough? Does anyone
imagine his work is immortal? 22 karat or not, we and our works are
but a teensy weeny blip here in the universe. Let’s be happy and
comfortable with what we enjoy and not put ourselves forward as the
flower of creation and the infallible arbiter of what is “fine.”
Many years ago I worked as chef in a very famous restaurant. My
creations were respected, enjoyed, and lavishly paid for but,
although they may live in the memories of my customers and myself,
they were all gone within minutes. Likewise with music down through
the ages - until the advent of recording technology. I am a musician
and, recordings or not, I know that many of the finest moments in
that “fine” art last literally only for the moment they occur. Get
used to the idea that there is no such thing as permanence, even
with precious metals and gems. Enjoy! Enjoy!
Marty
Richard, yours was a strange response. I’m glad you’re making quality
gold jewelry, but it’s not my thing. I don’t work in gold. I
purchased, not made, my little 9k pinkie ring that I enjoy so much. I
do not attend events where I must impress folks with the high quality
of my gold jewelry. It’s a good thing, because I don’t have any. My
husband and I have other things to do with our money.
I just don’t care about “richness of color,” and my 9k ring has
never tarnished. Who are these “educated” whom you say “goldsmiths
deal with”? I have a Bachelor’s degree in chemistry, an M. Div. in
theology, an M. A. and a Ph. D. in the history and literature of the
Ancient Near East (Iowa State; Princeton Theological Seminary; the
University of Pennsylvania, respectively). It’s not a matter of
education but of preference and life-style. I’m glad you’re “busy
making quality,” but I’m busy making other sorts of quality, and
Orchid is about those other kinds of quality, too.
Judy Bjorkman
The only gold I wear is my wedding ring, which is .999.
Oh you peasant, you definitely need to upgrade the purity of that
inferior .999 gold.
999.999 (The purest gold ever produced. Refined by the Perth Mint in
1958).
Anyone calling themselves a goldsmith “must” use this quality gold,
as anything less is not gold.
Regards Charles A.
P. S. Hee hee hee
If you can't afford it buy champagne or play in the traffic, real goldsmiths don't care!!!!!!!!
I am comparatively new to making jewelry compared with most here,
and while I still work mostly in silver because of price, when I do
work in gold, I only work with 18 and 22K. I consider making jewelry
as a new medium of art form for me (originally mainly a painter),
and I want to use the highest quality materials I can to make art.
And that is my choice for my work. But when I read something like
what I have quoted above, it makes me feel like to be a good jewelry
maker, that I can only care about rich people and treat those who
aren’t rich as if they don’t deserve to adorn themselves with
jewelry. Is that true? Why would anyone want to be part of something
like that? I understand that there are those people who will never
see the value in buying a unique hand-crafted piece of jewelry made
of high-quality precious metals and gems that will be passed down
for generations over a much cheaper but bigger and flashier-looking,
mass-produced bauble made of 9/10K with fake stones. Those people
will never be interested in our work. But what about the people who
can’t afford that expensive champagne " or the most expensive gold -
but would still like to have a unique piece of jewelry art to
wear… should we just not care about them? Jewelry is not how I pay
my bills (yet!), but those I know who do pay their bills with it
work their butts off for every dime they make. And if they weren’t
in the jewelry making business, they themselves probably couldn’t
easily afford any of the jewelry they had made for themselves. I
know that all my nice jewelry I made for myself. Do we have to
forget the little guy to make quality work? I’m not sure if that’s
what you meant, but that’s how it sounded to me, and it leaves a bad
taste in my mouth.
Actually Jo you completely misunderstood. The pieces are SAMPLES so
not madefor a particular client. A commissioned piece is made to the
precise specs of the client. A consignment piece is used as an
illustration of what is available. Do I really care about this
discussion anymore? Noooo.
What is gold? Does it matter.
Hi Guys,
People can argue as much as they want about what is and what isn’t
gold.
However the argument is moot, we have standards that tell us what
gold is and isn’t.
Everything else is an opinion, based on the properties of the alloys
discussed.
If you want to make something out of pure 100% fine gold, you’ll
never achieve that perfection. ever.
The purest gold made was 999.999 (The purest gold ever produced.
Refined by the Perth Mint in 1958), even that was not 100% pure.
However you can make items out of 100% gold according to our
respective countries standards, a very achievable, and very
satisfying goal So where does that leave us, if we can’t use 100%
pure alloys.
That leaves us with craftsmanship, meaning that the work and skill
that is use in the manufacture of the piece is more important than
the materials used in the manufacture. You can’t hide bad work by
covering it in stones, or using really expensive alloys. The work has
to be as best as you can make, regardless of the materials.
Everyone should agree that craftsmanship can transcend even the most
humblest material. If there were no precious alloys, the
craftsmanship would still be there to make other materials beautiful.
Regards Charles A.
P. S. Putting the soapbox away now.
I would never turn away someone who wanted something unique and made with care and attention because they couldn't afford to pay the extra to have it in 18 instead of 9.
I really would like to know what do you mean by unique and made with
care? Even at today prices, cost of metal be it gold or platinum, is
so minuscule compared to value of goldsmith time required to make
unique piece, that it hardly worth mentioning.
Meaning of goldsmith is a smith working with gold. Not copper, not
bronze, not wood, but gold.
9k is not gold. 14k is not gold. They are alloys of base metals with
some silver and gold mixed in.
It is unethical to call alloy gold where gold is not dominant metal.
And as I shown in my previous post, the only alloys where gold is
dominant are 18k and higher.
Leonid Surpin
Immortal works
On the contrary, please allow yourself at least some credit for a
lovely piece of coprolite. 
- Lorraine
I personally have loved the change from gold to other metals as it
has forced me to learn and to experiment with other things I would
have never thought of thinking of working with. Did like the money of
working with gold and platinum. But also love learning about
aluminum, brass, copper, silver etc. Aslong as you are learning you
will not die. Keep learning…