[4Sale] Rail anvils

James,

Anvils have a hardened face to allow for the proper rebound when
striking work on the anvil. 

Mine rebounds nicely!

and keeping it from being dented by the occasional missed blow. 

But it does get marked up… do I need to cover the surface with
felt?

Rail is a work hardening steel that forms a hardened face from the
work the rail car wheels impart to the rail by rolling over it. To
grind, or machine the rail to look like an anvil removes that hard
case and leaves a soft surface. 

Well, I didn’t really grind down as much as stoned it. Perhaps 1/32
of an inch just to remove the rust and pits. I left the original
curvature intact.

Perhaps there’s still a remaining layer of compressed steel I’ve
exposed that’s responsible for the rebound I’m getting.

I have machined down several rail anvils. The steel is very hard
not as hard as a real anvil but tough. 

But almost? Better than a bench block, not as good as the real
thing, but close enough for government work?

The amount of effort involved in making a piece of rail into an
anvil is not worth it unless your time is free.

Which in my case, it is. And I’ll bet the same for a whole lot of
Dine’ (where I learned about the idea from) who are forced to start
from scratch and use rail anvils rather than classical Western ones.

I’m coming to the realization that I won’t be able to make jewelry
as a profession.

If I’m meant to be an amateur (which some may interpret to mean
dilletante), then that frees me from having to be restricted to a
professional’s mindset.

But hey, I guess that means I’ve transitioned from being a ham radio
operator to becoming a ham artificier.

Andrew Jonathan Fine

What are the properties of an anvil that are not found in a rail? I
thought that a rail was the poor man's anvil, or for beginners
anyway. 

An anvil has two main properties lacking in a rail section. First an
anvil has a very hard face, this allows you to impart the maximum
amount of your blow into the work rather than the body of the anvil.
Second this hard surface acts to provide a rebound to the hammer so
that it makes it easier to raise the hammer for the next blow. The
third thing an anvil has that a rail section does not is mass, you
want an anvil to be at a minimum 10 times heaver than the hammer.
This is to increase the amount of force that is placed in the work
rather than moving the anvil around each time you strike. Rails are
relatively light weight and most of the mass is in the top section so
if one goes crazy with mills, torches, grinders etc to create
something that basically looks like an anvil much of the mass is
removed further reducing its usefulness as an anvil. Rail steel is a
medium carbon steel that is not able to be hardened to any
significant degree and is definitely not hardened during its
manufacture.It is designed to be very tough and resilient to
withstand the abuse of heavily loaded high speed wheels rolling over
it for many years. Hardening it would be very detrimental to those
properties. So it is a very different material from the steel one
would make an anvil from.

Look, sure there are many people who have used a rail section to
substitute for an anvil and I am not saying it is impossible,
impractical or that you should not do it but, you can get the same
functionality of a rail section “anvil” from virtually any chunk of
steel of appropriate size you can lay your hands on. An anvil is a
highly developed tool with properties refined over many centuries of
use. If you need an anvil a rail section will not be an adequate
substitute.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

Interesting that some are saying rail road anvils are no good.
Maybe rail road tracks are better made in the UK because I've seen
amazing knife blades and such made with them. How can they be good
enough to forge knives on but not good enough to make jewelry with? 

Ask any of the poor sods who are using a rail section anvil if they
would like a real anvil. All of them would be very happy to get their
hands on a real anvil unless they are masochists. Real anvils are not
cheap, a high quality new anvil can cost well upwards of $1000 and a
used anvil in good shape can be many hundreds of dollars.

( Nimba Anvils – anvils made in the USA, double-bick blacksmith anvils, Italian-style anvils: Gladiator Anvil (450lbs), Centurion Anvil (260lbs), Titan Anvil (120lbs) )

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

James,

Real anvils are not cheap, a high quality new anvil can cost well
upwards of $1000 and a used anvil in good shape can be many hundreds
of dollars. 
( http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/1qx ) 

I didn’t know you linked to Nimba anvils when I wrote my previous
reply. They are among the very best. I personally concluded that
used wasn’t a good option for cost and performance.

Dan Culver

The third thing an anvil has that a rail section does not is mass,
you want an anvil to be at a minimum 10 times heaver than the
hammer. This is to increase the amount of force that is placed in
the work rather than moving the anvil around each time you strike. 

I am usually reluctant to disagree with you James, but here I feel I
need to. I have used many ASOs (include railroad anvil I still have)
over many many years and finally stepped up to the real thing (Nimba
Titan and a custom made anvil). I think a more accurate ratio would
be 30 to 1, or even 40 to 1. My Nimba Titan (110 #) is travel mounted
and I have found that a 3.5 pound hammer is the heaviest I can go,
works great at 2.5 #. Anything larger I use my custom made anvil.

I am amazed by how cheap I was, and for how long I delayed, because
I had such easy access to chunks of steel to bang on. Once I got my
Nimba, my eyes were open to all the faults and failings that I had
previously embraced. The $1200.00 I spent seemed like nothing after
that. I immediately commissioned a custom made anvil to my
specifications just for flatware. I know that it is difficult to
afford an anvil, but if I could do it over, I would have bought the
anvil first, and only then I would have built my collection of
hammers and stakes.

I don’t know what I would recommend for jewelers, but for any
aspiring silversmith I would recommend a 100 # minimum anvil. I very
often wish I would have bought the Nimba Centurion at 260 #. Fred
Zwieg is often on Orchid and if you follow his Facebook page he often
links to used anvils. He can give very good advice (though I would
differ with him on several points) if he has time. A good used anvil
will cost as much or more than a new anvil because they are
collectable.

For a new anvil, Nimba and the original Peddinghaus are far and away
the best choices. I believe most silversmiths would be unhappy with
a Harrier type anvil and find an Italian or German style better.
Very, very few anvils are forged any more, too expensive, though
Peddinghaus still makes forged anvils; the Nimba is cast, but from
tool steel.

Daniel Culver

I can forge a knife with two hammers…clamp one in a vise and
hitting it with another hammer…such is the nature of making due.
Man used rock hammers and rock anvils for a long time…and then
forged iron anvils and hammers with rock tools and never looked back.

There is tooling to get by and then there is tooling designed for
the job.

If you like tools have a look here:
http://www.ganoksin.com/gnkurl/1r4

Some tools are brought to the level of art…yet remain functional.

Ric Furrer

Sturgeon Bay, WI

If I'm meant to be an amateur (which some may interpret to mean
dilletante), then that frees me from having to be restricted to a
professional's mindset. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being an amateur. Remember the
root of amateur is to love. To do something for the love of it is a
wonderful thing. A professional has a different perspective and
requirements on what they do and unfortunately may not necessarily
love what they do. This difference is often the root of some of the
more heated back and forth exchanges on this site.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

Maybe rail road tracks are better made in the UK because I've seen
amazing knife blades and such made with them. How can they be good
enough to forge knives on but not good enough to make jewelry with? 

A good craftsman could make the same blade with either a good anvil
or a piece of junk steel. I recall way back in the 60s, travelling to
Cozumel with parents, we went over to the ruins at Chichen Itza
(spelling?). It wasn’t then the big tourist center it is now, and we
got a ride from a guy at the air strip into the local little town
adjacent to the ruins, and wandered around there a bit before heading
to the ruins themselves. Saw a number of interesting little shops
doing all sorts of crafts. One in particular sticks in my memory. The
guy was making silver and stone inlay jewelry. Pretty typical sort of
stuff one finds even today. Colorful inlay patterns of turqoise (or
something pretending to be), coral, black onyx (same statement on
identity of those two). Decently made for what it was, and the low
prices asked. But here’s the thing. The guy’s whole workshop
basically existed in those small spaces in his garage not taken up
by his truck, and mostly in the dirt or gravel driveway itself. He
had a small table set up and was working at it. Grinding, polishing,
“lapidary” grinding, all was done on a small hand cranked grinder,
the type that used to be sold for sharpening knives. Soldering was
done with a beat up gasoline blow torch. His anvil (and this is why
this is in this post) was just a chunk of truck axle cut and jammed
into a large wooden stump of some sort. Careful gentle hammering was
done with a beat up carpenters hammer. And when he was ready to
inlay the stones, he’d glue them in with a high tech black adhesive.
Meaning he sent his kid out to the middle of the road where the sun
had warmed the asphalt paving enough so the kid could dig out a
spoonful…

I think about the only actual jewelers took he had there was a saw
frame. The rest was just salvaged whatever tools he’d picked up
wherever he could. But to look at his work, you’d never guess just
how primative his shop was.

The point is, Your knife makers skill is what made that blade. Not
the anvil. What the anvil does is not to make the finished work. It
makes the work easier to do. You can shape metal with a damaged, dull
file. It doesn’t work all that easily, but you can do it if you put
the effort into it. But a clean sharp file works a lot easier and
faster, and you have to correct for fewer shortcomings of the tools.
Same thing with rail anvils vs real anvils.

I should mention too, that I made a rail anvil many years ago. It
was a decent small bit of steel on which you could pound little
things for jewelry making. fine for that, as good as any large piece
of steel when doing little lightweigh work. But I’d never have tried
to forge larger pieces on it, since for that, I had better, heavier
tools…

Peter Rowe

Interesting that some are saying rail road anvils are no good.
Maybe rail road tracks are better made in the UK because I've seen
amazing knife blades and such made with them. How can they be good
enough to forge knives on but not good enough to make jewelry
with? 

It’s not the tools but the bladesmith that makes the blade :wink: If
you’ve got a piece of hardwood, that can be used as a temporary
anvil… seen it done… it was done to prove a point.

I saw a documentary about a royal goldsmith in an African country,
he had a block of wood, and a glass pipe. He melted a chunk of gold,
without gas or electricity, and made a wonderful piece of jewellery.
He had less than the poorest bench in our first world countries. Yet
he was still able to make excellent jewellery.

It doesn’t matter what tools you have or even their quality, if
you’ve got the skills there’s not much you can’t do.

Regards Charles A.

Hi James,

My first anvil was a chunk of round stock 2.5" diameter, by 8"
length. Embedded in a bucket of concrete. It was only intended for
light work, and the concrete needed to be replaced on occasion. It
only cost me the bucket and $5 of a premix concrete.

You can get away with a rail (well the rails in Oz anyway), as long
as it’s been used and the surface has been work hardened by countless
trains running over the top of them. For small work only, which is
fortunate as this is what most jewellers do.

A real anvil that is good quality is extremely difficult to obtain
in Australia, you can get reasonable anvils (I have a reasonable
anvil), but they don’t stand up to a lot of torture. It seems like
everyone in the states can get a good anvil for bugger all.

A good alternative anvil, is a solid chunk of steel, Wayne Goddard
uses a rail coupling.

Eventually I may be fortunate enough to acquire a good anvil, but
until that day, I’ll still keep making things with the best I can get
:wink:

Regards Charles A.

 Look, sure there are many people who have used a rail section to
substitute for an anvil and I am not saying it is impossible,
impractical or that you should not do it but, you can get the same
functionality of a rail section "anvil" from virtually any chunk
of steel of appropriate size you can lay your hands on. 

I’ve been reading this thread for my own enlightnement, really. I
think Jim’s words, above, could be expanded more, even. I have an
old, junk anvil of 5 pounds or something. Pint sized, bench top,
mild steel. I stamped a couple of hundred concha belts on it without
ever feeling like I was missing anything. I have half a dozen tool
steel bench blocks for banging whatever on. And the problem I have
with rails is the curved top… But, for those who think they
somehow NEED an anvil - well maybe you do and maybe you don’t. I
have no use for a hundred pound, $1000 anvil except to hold a coffee
cup. I’m not a blacksmith, I work on a small scale, and when I get
larger I do just fine. It’s just to say - maybe you need a major
anvil and maybe you don’t. It’s only an essential tool if you think
it is, and need one, and use it for what it’s intended for. Me, asa
jeweler - no, I don’t. A bench block does it just fine. Often here
on Orchid discussions can foster a need for the best and grandest
tools - nothing wrong with that. But a ginormous anvil is not
something everybody here needs, really. Of course, if you DO need
it, then that’s different

Perhaps I should add some thoughts to this very interesting thread. I
make much bigger stuff than most jewellers, being more a smith than a
stone man.

Also im addicted to collecting tools. Harmless in itself till one
runs out of space to store it all.

Re anvils in particular, Iron smiths have a very diffeent need to
silversmiths as such, and iron smiths anvils usually range from 56lbs
for a baby one used by farriers for horse shoeing to 2 cwt for heavy
iron forge work, where a team of hammer men would forge in a circle.
Wonderful to watch.

Ive a smiths power hammer as well, it was cheap so had it.!! Then
asked the question? what can I do with that that I cant do without?
Silversmiths use stakes more than anvils being in fact smaller
anvils with changeable heads.

The other anvil thats proved most useful to me has been a “T” type.
Some 75lbs in weight some 3 ft tall with the top some 2ft wide. One
side is round tapered the other is square also tapered.

Its made from wrought iron with crucible steel fire welded on the 2
working faces.

Made probably around 1800 to 1850.

Value? well I couldnt replace it,so if someone offered me say
$3000.00 for it id probably say no. $5000. probably yes.

Its in perfect condition like new. It stays in the house. Ive a
couple more of the same design but not as nice.

The other tool thats most useful is the smiths 3rd hand. ie the leg
vice. Also wrouht iron and designed to hold stakes and any other tool
to work on, and to be hammered upon. Nott like an engineers vice.

They are also hard to find now as they wernt made after around 1920.
the early ones say 1850 are the best. beautifully made and a joy to
use. As to bigger anvils there the base for the drop stamps. These
range from 500 lbs upwards. my medium one is 1/2 ton, and the latest
I recovered from a shop closing in Birmingham some 170milesfrom here
is 2 tons. these are invariably cast iron.

A bit of a logistic exercise getting it back here.thats lives
outside. Unlikely for anyone to steal it.!!

Can just lift it with the tractor front loader ive here.

That will take 12in dia dies between the 4 clamping screws.

Will go into my big dropstamp some time.Ive a hammer for that some
400lbs. The guides are some 7ft long so should get some 200 tons of
dynamic energy from it.

Great stuff.!!
enough for today,
Must go and do something!!

Ted
in Dorset
UK.

I have used my rail anvil for the last 30 years. It was given to me
by a member of my church, who tapered it at one end and made a
cut-out under that (which is a handy feature). At the other end, he
attached a horn which looks like the bottom 2/3 of a ring stick,
also very handy. The surface is slightly curved, except at the end
where he put the horn. There is a hole through the under part of the
rail, which works fine for attaching the anvil to the stump on which
I work with it. He even put my initials on the bottom of the anvil!

When I use it, I have to put on my ear-muffs because it has a
ferocious ringing to it, when hammered. When I really need a larger
flat surface (and no ringing) I use an old iron, inverted in a wooden
base. You can still find these sometimes (no aluminum, no steam
holes) at antique or house sales.

Judy Bjorkman

As far as I know, my rail anvil is roughly in the 50 to 70 range,
because I could only carry that load for a few feet before I’m
forced to put it down (or drop it!).

I use an 8 ounce ball-peen hammer, and a 12 ounce planishers.

Both of these bounce nicely (as in half a foot) off my rail’s
surface.

So I guess I have the correct ratio of anvil mass to hammer mass.

Andrew Jonathan Fine

James, thank you for the explanation of the difference between an
anvil and a rail. Maybe I need to save up for an anvil…hmmm.

Now another ‘substitute’ question - if I am wanting forming stakes
and cannot afford a set as yet, is there anything that I can use in
the meantime?

brenda

Now another 'substitute' question - if I am wanting forming stakes
and cannot afford a set as yet, is there anything that I can use
in the meantime? 

I have seen many different bits of steel used for stakes. Stakes are
often modified or made for a specific job because for planishing you
need the stake to conform to the curves in the piece. There are some
stakes that are more generic that don’t need to exactly match the
work. Stakes do not need to be the same quality steel that an anvil
needs to be but the longer arm ones need to be high quality to
survive use. So find bits of steel that you can hold or modify them
so that you can hold them in a vise or stump. Then make them match
the curves of the piece you need to form.

James Binnion
James Binnion Metal Arts

Now another 'substitute' question - if I am wanting forming stakes
and cannot afford a set as yet, is there anything that I can use
in the meantime? 

There are possibilities for substitution in forming stakes. Judging
each situation for the suitability of substituting is required. If
you have access to a supplier selling hardwood you can buy Hickory
about 1 1/4’’ to 1 1/2’’ thick in pieces big enough to cut out a
larger T- stake (10’’ x 12’‘, maybe). There is of course a limit to
what a Hickory T-stake can handle, but it can be used successfully.
You would need to layout your design of the T-stake on the side of
the piece of wood and cut it out. Leave as much material under the
vertical/ horizontal joint as possible. A vertical bandsaw would
make easy work of this and if you don’t have such a machine there are
usually many types of businesses that do. Cabinet or surf shops
would be most likely. After the T-stake is cut out you can refine the
shape with any roughing file and then some sandpaper. No need to
finish it too nicely. For smaller shapes you can do a similar project
using a piece of Delrin or Zytel plastic cut from a 3/4’’ thick
sheet. Most big cities have plastics supply houses and you can look
on line. In the past I had the habit of visiting the plastic supply’s
scrap bin and finding some very usable pieces for a few dollars. If
you have a large enough vice you could do some projects using an old
shovel handle or ax handle, both of Hickory, clamped in a vice. I
would also suggest making a habit of visiting any scrap yards if one
is available. Use your imagination and you will be surprised by what
you might find. Sometimes you can get something very close to what
you need by cutting it off a larger piece. Most scrap yards have gas
or plasma cutters. I’ve never found anything to make a T-stake
myself, but I do have a very nice vacuum chamber, half of which came
from a scrap yard for $25.00 and I bought a solid steel work bench
that weighs 1200#s for just $120,00. My anvils and heavy vises are
mounted on that.

Dan Culver

If you want to move up? from small bench work to bigger stuff, And
not in a position to buy a set of raising stakes, then you going to
need a proper workbench.

With somewhere to put it, with good lighting etc.

the bench needs to be some 6ft long, the right height for you and
made from at least 4 by 2 legs with a top some 2in thick. also a
shelf some 12in up from the ground as a bracing level.Why? as youll
need this to fix a proper leg vice with say 4in jaws, in the middle
of 1 side… Once youve got that far then you can start to look in
scrap yards for items of steel the sort of shapes you want to hold in
your leg vice to use as raising stakes.

If youve a friendly fellow somewhere who has an angle grinder, then
you/he can reshape the steel items to your needs. the theres lots of
polishing up of the working surfaces so you dont get marks from the
steel in the work.

What sort of things do you want to make with this sort of kit? If
you havnt many hammers go to car boots and house/garage sales
looking. there will be all sorts.

By looking every week, theres a good chance youll find some early
hammers made from wrought iron with crucible steel ends. You need to
look hard to spot them. there from pre 1860, before the Bessemer
steel process was introduced and steel became cheap to make. These
were always hand made and are real antiques as well as being a joy to
use.

More on identifying these next time.
Good luck.
Ted.

I have truly enjoyed reading the anvil stories…so I’ll add mine:

Newly married…32 years ago…I fell in love with a 300 lb anvil at
a yardsale across from our newly purchased fixer-upper. It was a $50
steal but I needed to get it home. My handsome mate went across with
a check and carried the thing home. He was almost to the barn when it
ripped from his hands and the horn tore a hole in his jeans. We
almost lost a future one at that point. This lovely anvil still
graces our barn…for the heavier forging I need and to repair
twisted pieces for him. We are still very much in love! All of us!

Hi Brenda,

Now another 'substitute' question - if I am wanting forming stakes
and cannot afford a set as yet, is there anything that I can use
in the meantime? 

Depending on the metal you are forming, you can use anything that
has a shape similar to that you want in the item to be formed. The
‘anvil’ can be metal, wood, plastic or anything that will take the
force imparted in the forging/forming process.

The forming stake can be clamped in a vise, nailed/screwed or
clamped to a bench or other sturdy support.

Check Potter USA - Fine Tools. Potter USA - Fine Tools for an assortment of forming
stakes.

Dave